[NCSG-PC] Intersessional/no meeting for 2019, but possibility to meet in 2020
Stephanie Perrin
stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
Fri Aug 24 16:02:27 EEST 2018
Yes, as I said I was conflating the two meetings....I was extremely sick
after I got there, had a really bad fever. Missed some of the GNSO
meeting and was not so perky during the intercessional.....
I do share a lot of Ayden's concerns though. YEs we need people to work
on it, yes the BC will be up to its usual tricks, but we still need to
try to get together with these guys and develop better relationships.
SP
On 2018-08-24 08:38, farzaneh badii wrote:
> You are talking about the council strategic meeting Stephanie. Are you
> still supporting the intersessional for NCPH? And you found it useful?
>
> Well you'll be the chair of NCSG and have to prepare it.
>
> Also note that ncsg only gets 7 slots. Npoc and ncuc will have 7 each.
> Selection cannot happen all at sg level and you will be bringing
> tourists around. That's what I have to say. Anyhow if csg altogether
> says biennial then we are done here.
>
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 8:18 AM Stephanie Perrin
> <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
> <mailto:stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:
>
> (I realized after I pushed send that I was conflating the two
> events there....but I do think it was useful)
>
> SP
>
> On 2018-08-24 08:12, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>>
>> I have to say that the last intercessional was excellent, and we
>> got a lot done. Earlier ones had been much less successful, and
>> I think coloured our responses. I know we are all busy, but I
>> think we are asking for trouble in the GNSO review if we lose the
>> momentum established under Heather's chairmanship (I would even
>> perhaps invite her back to chair, as she invited Jonathan).
>>
>> Stephanie
>>
>> On 2018-08-24 04:50, Ayden Férdeline wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> There was also an extensive discussion on the Google Doc when
>>> the comment was drafted, and there was significant support from
>>> NCSG members for an annual intersessional. Yes, there were some
>>> objections raised, which is why our comment was silent on the
>>> future of the intersessional. I do note that participation is
>>> optional and no one is forced to attend the intersessional if
>>> they do not consider it to be a productive use of their time.
>>>
>>>> Can we ask for a transfer? since this is a part of the core
>>>> budget it might be possible.
>>>
>>> That won’t happen.
>>>
>>> What will happen is this $100,000 that won’t be spent will be
>>> presented as an operational efficiency, as though ICANN staff
>>> have made some great sacrifice to replenish the reserve fund. We
>>> saw that happen with the cuts to CROP; it is being presented as
>>> though the spend on staff travel has decreased, when really, a
>>> good chunk of the decrease in spending has come from a reduction
>>> in community support.
>>>
>>> No intersessional won’t stop the BC or IPC from lobbying ICANN
>>> staff; they are often in DC or Los Angeles. It will hurt the
>>> NCSG however.
>>>
>>> I would oppose an intersessional that was anything like this
>>> year’s one; we need to think carefully about who we are
>>> inviting, and not just inviting those in leadership positions. I
>>> think we should be allocating the 21 slots as a stakeholder
>>> group and bringing in the right max of active participants.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Ayden
>>>
>>>> On 24 Aug 2018, at 06:03, farzaneh badii
>>>> <farzaneh.badii at gmail.com <mailto:farzaneh.badii at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ayden,
>>>>
>>>> I had the impression that we had said in our comment on
>>>> budget that we do the intersessional every "other" year. Based
>>>> on the thread below, which Rafik, Tatiana, Milton had supported
>>>> every other year and mentioned it. But seems like you decided
>>>> to delete the paragraph altogether and I did not personally
>>>> respond to add it back in and support every other year.
>>>>
>>>> Is ICANN giving us 100,000 USD to go to events that we have
>>>> done so well so far? RightsCon, IGF etc? No. It is throwing bad
>>>> money after bad. Can we ask for a transfer? since this is a
>>>> part of the core budget it might be possible.
>>>>
>>>> No one on post intersessional mailing list was meaningfully
>>>> active, responding to staff questions and commenting (other
>>>> than you). Rarely there were any substantive comments that
>>>> added to the report etc. And we spent a lot of time planning
>>>> the last year's intersessional but it does not get any better.
>>>> We have made more progress procedural wise, via email than we
>>>> have done during these meetings. Also we have to always put out
>>>> fire in these meetings. It is exhausting. I won't be chair
>>>> anymore so I won't even be obliged to go but I have a tip. as
>>>> long as those who take the survey and say it was great but
>>>> don't even weigh in on simple questions on mailing list, are
>>>> not involved with working group to have an understanding of
>>>> dynamics, do not have a basic understanding of NCPH and do not
>>>> try to understand, then I think intersessional is just good for
>>>> some to travel. For others it's a lot of work. Intersessional
>>>> is not a learning opportunity. It's a battlefield. Lets bring
>>>> it on every other year than facing it every year with only a
>>>> very small number contributing and a very large number just
>>>> traveling (on both stakeholder groups).
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Farzaneh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> From: *Ayden Férdeline* <icann at ferdeline.com
>>>> <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>>
>>>> Date: Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 3:57 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [NCSG-PC] [Draft] Proposed NCSG Comment on the
>>>> FY19 Budget
>>>> To: Rafik Dammak <rafik.dammak at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:rafik.dammak at gmail.com>>
>>>> Cc: ncsg-pc at lists.ncsg.is <mailto:ncsg-pc at lists.ncsg.is>
>>>> <ncsg-pc at lists.ncsg.is <mailto:ncsg-pc at lists.ncsg.is>>, Milton
>>>> Mueller <milton at gatech.edu <mailto:milton at gatech.edu>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your comments on the Budget in the Google Doc,
>>>> Rafik; I've replied directly and done my best to resolve your
>>>> concerns. In particular please note the re-worded paragraph # 9
>>>> (constituency travellers). I'll put your question in #6 to
>>>> Xavier on Monday when the [GNSO Council] Standing Committee on
>>>> Budget and Operations has its next call with Finance.
>>>>
>>>> I have now removed the paragraph about the Intersessional, as
>>>> perhaps it is better to be silent here rather than to praise
>>>> something which may not have widespread support. This year's
>>>> Intersessional was a trainwreck but I do think this is a
>>>> disaster we have to own. Last year's Intersessional was
>>>> brilliant. What was the difference? It wasn't content (as you
>>>> said Rafik, the content rarely changes), but I do think it was
>>>> the participant mix. Our 'side' was too silent at this year's
>>>> meeting and we didn't have enough strong voices to counter the
>>>> perspectives being shared by the CSG. When I think back to
>>>> Reykjavik, I remember how great it was having Kathy and others
>>>> engaging in real debates with the CSG. I didn't see enough of
>>>> that this year; I cannot even think of any action items that
>>>> came out of the forum. With the suggestion circulating (at
>>>> least during the Council's Strategic Planning Session) that we
>>>> may need to go down from 3 to 2 ICANN public meetings per year
>>>> for budgetary reasons, and may want to tie a Council meeting in
>>>> with the GDD Summit, I am reluctant to relinquish any support
>>>> allocated to us that has made the core budget. But perhaps we
>>>> could advocate tying the Intersessional in with the GDD Summit,
>>>> an idea floated last year? I could see real benefits to that;
>>>> on some issues, the contracted parties are our allies...
>>>>
>>>> Another thing: the Additional Budget Requests (ABRs). I made
>>>> the point in this comment that I think it is wrong to cut this
>>>> community support, because I feel very strongly that to make
>>>> small cuts here which impact us, without tackling structural
>>>> issues where the real costs lie, is the wrong approach. But how
>>>> on earth could we expect ICANN to approve some of them? Some
>>>> which 'we' submitted are genuinely embarrassing and would be an
>>>> inappropriate use of funds if approved. I have not said
>>>> anything on the main mailing list BUT ones like this, i.e. an
>>>> NCUC board game
>>>> <https://lists.ncuc.org/pipermail/ncuc-ec/2018-February/008789.html>,
>>>> should never have been submitted (in my opinion) and harm our
>>>> reputation. Their submission was an Executive decision made
>>>> without public consultation on the discussion list. I don't
>>>> want this to sound like an attack against anyone, as that is
>>>> not my intention, but I think we need to do some kind of
>>>> internal reflection before submitting requests. This request
>>>> for a board game will be seen by the entire community, will be
>>>> mocked, and let's be real, won't be approved (nor should it!).
>>>> Why do this to our reputation?
>>>>
>>>> Ayden
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On 9 February 2018 8:07 AM, Rafik Dammak
>>>> <rafik.dammak at gmail.com <mailto:rafik.dammak at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ayden,
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks for the draft which is coming at a good time and allow
>>>>> us to work on it without pressure,
>>>>> about the intercessional which is a separate topic not
>>>>> necessarily related to the budget, I am for an evaluation and
>>>>> assessment. I am not that convinced that issues were a matter
>>>>> of planning. The content is almost the same every year, just
>>>>> with small changes of few topics. I think after 5 years or
>>>>> more, it is a good time to review and think about improvement.
>>>>> I believe our CSG friends will be open and welcome that.
>>>>> Organizing it every other year can provide that opportunity
>>>>> and possibility for real change.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will review the budget and add my comments there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Rafik
>>>>>
>>>>> 2018-02-09 6:21 GMT+09:00 Ayden Férdeline <icann at ferdeline.com
>>>>> <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>>:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this year's Intersessional was unsuccessful,
>>>>> partially because of insufficient planning on our part, as
>>>>> well as the wrong delegates being in attendance. But I do
>>>>> think the concept itself is a good one and one which
>>>>> should continue. I am happy to remove this paragraph from
>>>>> the document altogether, however, if we do not have a
>>>>> common agreement on their value. I don't think it ranks
>>>>> among our most pressing concerns!
>>>>>
>>>>> Ayden
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> On 8 February 2018 10:14 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina
>>>>> <t.tropina at mpicc.de <mailto:t.tropina at mpicc.de>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am one of those who questions the value of the
>>>>>> intersessionals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I won't support continuing them every year. Every other
>>>>>> year is a compromise I can accept.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tanya
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 08/02/18 20:14, Mueller, Milton L wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ayden
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’ve had a chance to read your comments and congratulate
>>>>>>> you on doing so much work to go through the budget and
>>>>>>> prepare an intelligent evaluation of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with most of the comments but propose a few
>>>>>>> minor amendments here and there, which I will put onto
>>>>>>> the Google doc using suggest mode.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only point of disagreement is #17 your support for
>>>>>>> continued intersessionals. I don’t think there is
>>>>>>> consensus on that and in fact after the last one I heard
>>>>>>> several people who supported them question their value
>>>>>>> or frequency. A good middle ground might be to have them
>>>>>>> once every other year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, I’ll enter my comments on the doc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dr. Milton L Mueller
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Professor, School of Public Policy <http://spp.gatech.edu/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Georgia Institute of Technology
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Internet Governance Project
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://internetgovernance.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* Ayden Férdeline [mailto:icann at ferdeline.com]
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 7:27 AM
>>>>>>> *To:* ncsg-pc <ncsg-pc at lists.ncsg.is>
>>>>>>> <mailto:ncsg-pc at lists.ncsg.is>; Mueller, Milton L
>>>>>>> <milton at gatech.edu> <mailto:milton at gatech.edu>;
>>>>>>> crg at ISOC-CR.ORG <mailto:crg at ISOC-CR.ORG>;
>>>>>>> paul.rosenzweig at REDBRANCHCONSULTING.COM
>>>>>>> <mailto:paul.rosenzweig at REDBRANCHCONSULTING.COM>;
>>>>>>> Corinne Cath <corinnecath at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> <mailto:corinnecath at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* [Draft] Proposed NCSG Comment on the FY19 Budget
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have prepared a first draft of a proposed NCSG comment
>>>>>>> on the FY19 budget. This took quite some time to comb
>>>>>>> through, and I might have missed some things. So before
>>>>>>> I share this comment on the main discussion list and
>>>>>>> face the inevitable wrath of criticism and dislike, I
>>>>>>> thought I might share it here to get some initial
>>>>>>> feedback. I have also cc'd in a few other people who
>>>>>>> might not be on this mailing list but who I think might
>>>>>>> be able to offer some constructive edits on its contents:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tBia4z5QQFGz9vFUQUkS0lbZNqU6C5n4pyUmlH3m8e8/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many thanks for your help,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ayden
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P.S. Carlos, if one sentence looks familiar, it's
>>>>>>> because I copied and pasted it from an email you sent to
>>>>>>> the NCSG list last year re: our Reserve Fund comment. I
>>>>>>> hope this is okay. Thanks!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NCSG-PC mailing list
>>>>>>> NCSG-PC at lists.ncsg.is <mailto:NCSG-PC at lists.ncsg.is>
>>>>>>> https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NCSG-PC mailing list
>>>>> NCSG-PC at lists.ncsg.is <mailto:NCSG-PC at lists.ncsg.is>
>>>>> https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NCSG-PC mailing list
>>>> NCSG-PC at lists.ncsg.is <mailto:NCSG-PC at lists.ncsg.is>
>>>> https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc
>>>> Farzaneh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 7:46 PM Ayden Férdeline
>>>> <icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The community has suffered cut after cut and we have been
>>>> directly impacted. We have next to no budget for capacity
>>>> building this fiscal year, and CROP has become useless, as
>>>> it can only be used for ICANN-sponsored events and ICANN
>>>> refuses to provide a list of them. And we are about to
>>>> throw away $100,000 that actually was allocated to us for
>>>> an intersessional? This is crazy; we should improve it,
>>>> make it work. And I definitely think we should be
>>>> consulting with members to develop our position here.
>>>>
>>>> Ayden
>>>>
>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 01:42, Rafik Dammak
>>>> <rafik.dammak at gmail.com <mailto:rafik.dammak at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I made my opinion based on all the intersessionals since
>>>>> the beginning not just the last ones. I am also cautious
>>>>> to think that is "people" issue as it is usually the easy
>>>>> way to ignore other causes and problems.
>>>>> again I dont see any lasting outcome from intercessional
>>>>> including iceland. even a topic like Board seat election
>>>>> was only fixed this year and the work done by email and
>>>>> with a small group.
>>>>> I think it is a good time to review.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Rafik
>>>>>
>>>>> Le ven. 24 août 2018 à 08:35, Ayden Férdeline
>>>>> <icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>> a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we should discuss this with the entire
>>>>> membership before we rule it out. I think the
>>>>> intersessional has value. It was not the best this
>>>>> year, but we invited the wrong people. The Iceland
>>>>> intersessional was extremely productive. We should
>>>>> return to that format. And discuss who to invite.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ayden
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 01:29, Rafik Dammak
>>>>> <rafik.dammak at gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:rafik.dammak at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Ayden,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see how things can be improve. the same
>>>>>> timeframe issue is still there and make it impossible
>>>>>> to make any substantial change in format or even topics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rafik
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le ven. 24 août 2018 à 08:20, Ayden Férdeline
>>>>>> <icann at ferdeline.com <mailto:icann at ferdeline.com>> a
>>>>>> écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Strategically I think it is a mistake to turn
>>>>>> down this support. We have this resource
>>>>>> allocated in the budget. Why not improve it for
>>>>>> 2019? We won’t get it in 2020 if we decline the
>>>>>> resource this fiscal year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ayden
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 01:12, Rafik Dammak
>>>>>> <rafik.dammak at gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:rafik.dammak at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Farzaneh,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> yes holding in 2020 will give more time to
>>>>>>> rethink the format and the objectives of the
>>>>>>> intercessional. we got to review it, holding
>>>>>>> such meeting for sake of holding makes no sense.
>>>>>>> I don't recall any lasting outcome from the
>>>>>>> intersessional and we works with CSG when needed
>>>>>>> outside that meeting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rafik
>>>>>>> Le ven. 24 août 2018 à 07:55, farzaneh badii
>>>>>>> <farzaneh.badii at gmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:farzaneh.badii at gmail.com>> a écrit :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As we agreed in our comment, it is better to
>>>>>>> have the intersessional meeting every two
>>>>>>> years. today the gnso team contacted the
>>>>>>> chairs to know their opinion about holding
>>>>>>> the intersessional Joan and i said that it
>>>>>>> should be every two years(based on our
>>>>>>> previous deliberation with the group)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So this means we should discuss holding it
>>>>>>> for 2020 and no intersessional in 2019.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Farzaneh
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Farzaneh
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NCSG-PC mailing list
>>>>>>> NCSG-PC at lists.ncsg.is
>>>>>>> <mailto:NCSG-PC at lists.ncsg.is>
>>>>>>> https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NCSG-PC mailing list
>>> NCSG-PC at lists.ncsg.is <mailto:NCSG-PC at lists.ncsg.is>
>>> https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
> NCSG-PC mailing list
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> --
> Farzaneh
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