[NCSG-EC] Vaibhav

Thu Jun 4 06:35:06 EEST 2020

Thanks Robin. I understand you prefer to address the membership status
problem before the behavior?

One way or the other, I agree with the points you make. There is at least
some language in the OPs regarding summary dismissal of frivolous
complaints, which can serve as a basis for the dismissal of the current
complaint re Milton.

Before taking any further action re the dismissal of his complaint however,
I would be inclined to ensure that he is also under moderation for the NCUC
list, on which he has continued to post; again, I just want to be careful
and avoid retaliation or escalation on a parallel channel. We can consider
ourselves lucky that there has been no flare-up today despite the fact that
he's been posting.

So let's coordinate with Bruna on that; I think she might want a more
formal notice from you Steph, for the record. Could you take care of that?

Thanks and have a nice evening,

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 4:04 PM Robin Gross via NCSG-EC <
ncsg-ec at lists.ncsg.is> wrote:

> Specifically, see the NCSG Operating Procedures for reviewing membership
> status on frivolous and vexatious requests:
>
> https://community.icann.org/display/gnsononcomstake/Operating+Procedures#OperatingProcedures-169034239
>
>
> II. Initial Review….
> […]
>
> B.  Process for Request for Review of Membership Eligibility
>
> 1.  Request for Review of membership eligibility of a NCSG Member shall be
> filed by sending an email to the NCSG Chair providing notice of such
> request, together with any evidence supporting the Request or otherwise
> relevant to the issues under review.  The Request shall state sufficient
> facts and argument that is supported by evidence which demonstrates that
> the Member under review is not currently eligible for NCSG membership under
> the category for which that Member is admitted (or any category of
> eligibility if applicable).
>
> 2.  The Chair retains the right to decide in Chair’s discretion if any
> Request for Review is frivolous or vexatious or otherwise totally lacking
> in merit and may summarily deny the Request on those grounds, provided that
> the Chair informs the EC of such a decision simultaneously with the
> Requester.  Any Member of the EC may revive the summarily denied Request
> for Review for the next 14 days by notification of email to the EC email
> list requesting such revival.
>
> 3.  Within 10 days of Chair’s receipt of a valid (i.e., revived,
> non-frivolous, non-vexatious) Request for Review of membership, the Chair
> shall forward the Request for Review and any supporting documentation to
> the NCSG Member whose membership is under Review and shall request a
> response from the Member to be submitted to the EC within 21 calendar days
> from Member’s notification of the Request.  Simultaneous with Member’s
> notification, the Chair shall also send the NCSG EC Members a copy of the
> Request for Review and any supporting documentation provided.
>
>
>
> On Jun 3, 2020, at 12:52 PM, Robin Gross via NCSG-EC <
> ncsg-ec at lists.ncsg.is> wrote:
>
> Yes, given his unwillingness to stop the attacks, I think he should stay
> under moderation until after we are able to process the complaint that was
> filed regarding his membership status.  We need to follow our operating
> procedures regarding the handling of such complaints, and the process will
> take time as there are considerable due process concerns to it.  We also
> need to be sure that we don’t forward such complaints onto ANY publicly
> archived mailing lists (including this EC list) because mere allegations
> can be quite harmful to people’s reputations, which is what we agreed last
> year after the complaint Ayden filed against David was erroneously
> forwarded to a publicly archived list and caused significant damage before
> any truth to it could be ascertained.
>
> As for the complaint Vaibhav filed against Milton, we have procedures for
> the handling of frivolous and vexatious complaints against members and they
> can be summarily disposed of without wasting any time on them.  Thanks.
>
> Best,
> Robin
>
>
> On Jun 3, 2020, at 11:33 AM, Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix via NCSG-EC <
> ncsg-ec at lists.ncsg.is> wrote:
>
> Fine with your assessment re his complaint, but he has continued to @
> Georgia Tech on Twitter as recently as this morning.
>
> We can still wait until the elections are over to take a decision; there
> is no practical difference between being suspended from the list or being
> under post moderation, to the extent that his posts do not reach the list
> without our consent, and we can consent to nothing.
>
> That still means his vote gets to be counted though.
>
> At this point I can go one way or another, depending on what others think.
>
> Have a nice day,
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 11:43 AM Stephanie E Perrin <
> stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
>> Bearing in mind the need to ensure confidentiality of formal complaints,
>> which Mr. Aggarwal's latest email to me indicates that this is, I reached
>> out to Milton.  He is not prepared to apologize to Mr Aggarwal on the
>> list.   i am about to inform Mr. A of this fact, and that I have reviewed
>> the messages in question and not only do not think he has a valid
>> complaint, but concur with the EC that his behaviour on the list violates
>> our acceptable standards.  Do you agree with this assessment?
>>
>> I suggest we review his membership after the elections are over.  in the
>> meantime, if you believe that his conduct after the warning in private was
>> issued continues to be outside the boundaries of acceptable behaviour,
>> please point me to the evidence and I will inform him that the NCSG-EC has
>> removed him from the list.  Period of removal should be temporary in my
>> view, pending removal of membership if indeed he does not qualify on
>> grounds of his commercial activities.
>>
>> SP
>> On 2020-06-03 10:04 a.m., Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix wrote:
>>
>> Hi all
>>
>> Good morning, and I hope you all enjoyed a good night's sleep...
>>
>> First about the guy:
>>
>> He has shown no willingness to do anything besides continue on the same
>> track. He posted on the list *and* on social media *after* the warning, and
>> probably realizing he had been moderated from the NCSG list, took to the
>> NCUC list.
>>
>> There is also now an "official" request by James to look into his
>> membership status (raised directly with Stephanie and Bruna (putting me in
>> cc, hence I inform you here))
>>
>> Irrespective of the last point, the rest is enough to me to warrant his
>> immediate removal, his "complaint" against Milton notwithstanding.
>>
>> We can blame ourselves for letting things heat up and failing to moderate
>> (technically speaking) quickly enough, but he's the one to blame for
>> disregarding pretty much every point from our warning and actively
>> circumventing it.
>>
>> As to the complaint re Milton, the furthest I would be willing to go
>> would be to send a reminder to Milton, encouraging him to exercise utmost
>> caution in his choice of words when faced with disruptive behavior on list,
>> in the multicultural context that is ours.
>>
>> I will be in touch with Bruna regarding moderating him from the NCUC
>> mailing list as well. And let me know your thoughts on the main issue.
>>
>> Have a nice day,
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 5:15 AM Raoul Plommer <plommer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Milton has nothing to apologise for, as far as I'm concerned. I might've
>>> been even less polite, had I seen this ridiculous energy waster yesterday.
>>>
>>> -Raoul
>>>
>>> On Wed, 3 Jun 2020 at 03:36, U Of T via NCSG-EC <ncsg-ec at lists.ncsg.is>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> He has sent me such a direct complaint. No specifics of course.  I
>>>> guess i have to respond. He is demanding I make Milton apologize on the
>>>> list.  Advice welcome.
>>>> Steph
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 2, 2020, at 20:29, Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix <
>>>> rbeauregardlacroix at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> I got the confirmation from Rafik that Vaibhav is now on filter mode.
>>>>
>>>> I'll start another thread to deal with the technical side of that...
>>>>
>>>> But for the main issue, I suggest we leave it at that and filter
>>>> everything until the election is over, and take a second look by then.
>>>>
>>>> Also, he seems to imply he wants to file a complaint against Milton. I
>>>> guess we should still reply to that - something like if you want to file a
>>>> complaint, you have to do it in writing to the Chair?
>>>>
>>>> Let me know. Hopefully with the filter in place and maybe a few more
>>>> reminders if more people try to keep the discussion rolling, we can put
>>>> that behind us and move on with our lives...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 5:22 PM Stephanie E Perrin via NCSG-EC <
>>>> ncsg-ec at lists.ncsg.is> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Looks fine to me.  Thanks for doing this Raphael!
>>>>>
>>>>> SP
>>>>> On 2020-06-02 2:19 p.m., Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix via NCSG-EC wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> This was not my initial interpretation of his message either, but I
>>>>> can see how and why you can interpret it that way Steph.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I'm not sure that the point you are raising should be addressed in
>>>>> the context of the EC. It has ramifications into both your history as a
>>>>> NCSG chair, and the "issues" with our rigid gender rules that now put you
>>>>> in a situation where you are (almost) elected by default. The
>>>>> interpretation you put forward is legitimate in your circumstances, but it
>>>>> has to be inferred, from a rather complex situation and long-standing
>>>>> situation. Whats going on with Vaibhav though is rather straightforward and
>>>>> can be addressed right away.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is what I plan to send him later today, with your agreement:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Vaibhav,
>>>>>
>>>>> We are writing to you regarding the post you made on the NCSG mailing
>>>>> list at 11:50 EST in the "NCSG Election Clarifications" thread.
>>>>>
>>>>> After reviewing the content of your post, we find it to be in
>>>>> violation of both the NCSG Charter and the ICANN Expected Standards of
>>>>> Behavior.
>>>>>
>>>>> Article 1.2 d) of the NCSG Charter reads as follows:
>>>>> "Behavioral expectations of all NCSG members, include without
>>>>> limitation: adhering to ICANN Bylaws/Policies; supporting the bottom-up
>>>>> consensus model; treating others with dignity, respect, and courtesy;
>>>>> listening attentively and seeking to understand others; acting with
>>>>> honesty, sincerity, and integrity."
>>>>>
>>>>> Your recent interventions on the mailing list were generally
>>>>> borderline regarding these Charter committments, and the one we referred to
>>>>> above constitutes a direct violation.
>>>>>
>>>>> We would kindly ask you to reconsider how you understand your
>>>>> involvement with NCSG and withdraw the personal attacks, accusations and
>>>>> threats you made in that post.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any further post on the NCSG mailing list which would be found in
>>>>> violation of the NCSG Charter could lead to your suspension from the
>>>>> mailing list and a further review of your membership status by the NCSG
>>>>> Executive Committee.
>>>>>
>>>>> We thank you in advance for your cooperation on this matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Raphaël Beauregard-Lacroix, on behalf of the NCSG Executive Committee
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2020 at 1:53 PM Robin Gross via NCSG-EC <
>>>>> ncsg-ec at lists.ncsg.is> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn’t interpret Milton’s message as being hurtful but more of what
>>>>>> we face every election - people imaging ways of using the existing ballot
>>>>>> and rules to achieve various results.  It isn’t the first time we’ve had
>>>>>> abstain / NOTA conversations and probably won’t be the last.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 2, 2020, at 10:04 AM, Stephanie E Perrin via NCSG-EC <
>>>>>> ncsg-ec at lists.ncsg.is> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just responded to James' comment, in hopes that this would douse
>>>>>> the flames.  I also resent the thread of reminders about the election
>>>>>> process....I trust it made it to the list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that whoever this Agarwal guy is, an offlist note is
>>>>>> required.  I would really appreciate it if you did it, because frankly it
>>>>>> looks like I am retaliating and might serve to escalate matters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also think Milton is out of line.  I am well aware of how much he
>>>>>> would like me not to run, but to suggest to the list that they send me a
>>>>>> message about how unwelcome I am, by voting abstain....well, besides being
>>>>>> hurtful, I think it is a kind of electioneering that ought to be
>>>>>> discouraged.  Encourage people to vote for your candidate of choice, sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also think that encouraging me to step down so the EC can appoint
>>>>>> the person they really want raises all kinds of questions about how fair
>>>>>> the election process is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just my two cents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SP
>>>>>> On 2020-06-02 12:57 p.m., Raphael Beauregard-Lacroix via NCSG-EC
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What he said to Milton is disrespectful, and contains specific
>>>>>> accusations as well as threats. I think he needs to be reminded off-list of
>>>>>> the expected standards of behavior at ICANN and encouraged to withdraw what
>>>>>> he said and eventually apologize. If he keeps lashing on, then to me thats
>>>>>> a case of temporary suspension from the mailing list with further review on
>>>>>> our side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Milton is harsh, and I also think he should exercise restraint in
>>>>>> such circumstances, and it would be fair game to remind him. His point
>>>>>> could be made without certain words, irrespective of their being "true" or
>>>>>> not. But Vaibhav's surely went way over the line as far as standards of
>>>>>> behavior are concerned, much more than Milton ever did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know you don't like to play the cop Steph, but I do think it's
>>>>>> required, unfortunately. If you don't feel like it, I can volunteer, or
>>>>>> someone else can go ahead too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But let's quickly discuss first; let me know what you all think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have a nice day,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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