Opening an account for NPOC, NCUC and NCSG in Estonia

Wed Jan 16 13:09:08 EET 2019

Thanks for the clarification Sam

Happy birthday in advance.

Regards
Remmy

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019, 6:09 p.m. Sam Lanfranco <lanfran at yorku.ca wrote:

> Hi Farzaneh.
>
> You are pretty much right. Three points of clarification:
>
>    - I have pulled back from the FC because of heavy (and about to be a
>    lot heavier) other internet related work obligations.
>    - The NPOC account set up by Joan and me is there, sitting idle. I
>    have asked Joan to take the lead in where it goes. She is waiting (I think)
>    for this bigger discussion to conclude.
>    - The process of setting up non-profit bank accounts in Canada is very
>    simple, the only constraint is those with signing ability (single, double
>    signatures, whatever) have to be resident in Canada to go to a bank branch
>    and sign the account creation document, and to sign the signing privileges
>    document. There are no associated tax or formal organization registration
>    requirements. Each step just needs a letter from the organization (e.g.
>    NPOC, NCUC, NCSG) authorizing the people here to do what they are doing in
>    the creation of the account.
>
> I hope this helps. For you information (and amusement?)  I will continue
> to do what I can with NPOC and NCSG but I am taking some time off next
> month. It is to celebrate my 80th birthday, going to Mexico with my
> girlfriend of 60 years ago.
>
> Sam
>
>
> On 1/16/2019 10:51 AM, farzaneh badii wrote:
>
> No I am sorry. Sam stepped down from the FC a couple last year and he
> mentioned that he does not want to be involved. I let him clarify it.
>
> Also there are some political issues here, we can't mix an NPOC account
> (or a previous NPOC account) with NCSG account and leave NCUC out. So NCSG
> account should be NCSG account with Stephanie Perrin as the NCSG chair  has
> come up with a preliminary plan.
>
>
> Farzaneh
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 5:52 AM Raoul Plommer <plommer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I think the account created by Joan and Sam would presumably have to
>> be renamed NPOC -> NCSG. Other than that, I think as long as you're all
>> Canadian you can all access the account just as easy. I don't think you'd
>> be going physically to the bank all the time anyway. As long as the bank
>> has a branch close to all of you three, the names can be changed without a
>> hitch. As far as I can see, the only issue is trust. I.e. that Sam or Joan
>> wouldn't run away with the funds. I seriously can't see that happening, at
>> all. I'm quite sure Joan or Sam would be willing to change their name as
>> the account holder into someone else, say Stephanie, for example. I was
>> just trying to make use of what we already have.
>>
>> -Raoul
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 11:43, Remmy Nweke <remmyn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Stephanie
>>> Thanks to Ramirez for the intervention.
>>>
>>> I am not sure both you and Sam have this kind of account except I am
>>> missing something.
>>>
>>> I thought he opened account for NPOC.
>>>
>>> At the same time there will be a cost of operating whatever account we
>>> eventually decided and must not overlook budgeting or planning for this
>>> cost alongside every plan.
>>> Regards
>>> Remmy
>>>
>>> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019, 11:30 p.m. Stephanie Perrin <
>>> stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tamir has volunteered to get some legal advice on this from those who
>>>> understand banking better.  The account is free.  I think Sam's account is
>>>> on the same basis as mine.  I am looking into business numbers.  I think we
>>>> have it all in hand.  Sam and Joan and I are actually quite far from each
>>>> other.  As long as it costs nothing, I think we should stick to this plan,
>>>> while we investigate all the ramifications of this.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers Stephanie
>>>> On 2019-01-15 16:32, Remmy Nweke wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Stephanie
>>>> Hope this meets you well.
>>>> Will not be of best interest to leverage the NPOC account which Sam
>>>> once opened and since you are also within reach to make this the best we
>>>> can.
>>>>
>>>> I had previously suggested we leverage this kind of account before Sam
>>>> insight came with hope that there should be some kind of Memorandum of
>>>> Understanding among the Cs and NCSG in the case of any hiccup with hope
>>>> that will help us navigate the NCSG imbroglio with a given percentage set
>>>> aside to caution the taxes that is associated with it in the event we have
>>>> inflows, so that we do not overlabour our volunteers for choosing to serve
>>>> at the highlevels.
>>>>
>>>> May be a revisit will help us all.
>>>> Remmy
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 7:33 PM Stephanie Perrin <
>>>> stephanie at digitaldiscretion.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for this discussion, Tapani and Moritz.  Obviously, I am
>>>>> concerned abou this because I have no desire to pay income tax on the
>>>>> amount potentially coming into my account from the PIR account,
>>>>> particularly because it is coming form the United States and this would
>>>>> not, to the best of my knowledge, be covered under the waiver we all sign
>>>>> as volunteers accepting travel funds from ICANN.  I will be asking my
>>>>> account for advice on this, at my own expense.  The long arm of the IRS is
>>>>> not to be underestimated, for us Canadians, and they can be quite arbitrary
>>>>> about alleging taxes owed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephanie
>>>>> On 2019-01-13 06:25, Tapani Tarvainen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 12 23:15, Moritz Bartl (bartl at RENEWABLEFREEDOM.ORG) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What is being discussed here is _not_ merely "opening a bank account".
>>>>> What you are discussing is to set up organizations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. That is the whole point, specifically to avoid this:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you run an account under your name, or a shared account with
>>>>> someone else, you have the full legal responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. And that is our situation now.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But, maybe more importantly, what you receive to this account is
>>>>> (shared) income. If you don't declare it with your taxes, you are
>>>>> committing tax fraud.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not correct in general. Rules vary from country to country, of
>>>>> course, and what you say may be true in some, but certainly not all -
>>>>> the following applies in at least some I happen to know of.
>>>>>
>>>>> All money that comes to your accounts is not income nor should be
>>>>> declared as such. You can, for example, borrow or lend money, and if
>>>>> there's no interest involved there's no income either nor any need to
>>>>> declare such debts with your taxes (at least if your country has no
>>>>> property tax).
>>>>>
>>>>> More to the point, you can use your own account to handle money
>>>>> belonging to someone else, including an association, without any tax
>>>>> implications, and in many countries law also recognizes unregistered
>>>>> or unincorporated associations (with various limitations on what they
>>>>> can or can't do).
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether any incoming money is ultimately taxable or needs to be
>>>>> declared depends on all kinds of things, but often, e.g., membership
>>>>> fees are tax exempt.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you buy services, you buy them for you, and they become your
>>>>> legal responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is not quite accurate either. You can buy services even for an
>>>>> unregistered association. You will be responsible for them, but if you
>>>>> try to, say, take them away from the association, its other members
>>>>> can sue you and win, depending on details of course.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You can do so as a group, no problem, but you are not magically "not
>>>>> a legal entity".
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not quite sure what that means, but certainly even an unregistered
>>>>> association can be a legal entity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Registering or incorporating an association changes the situation, in
>>>>> particular it limits personal responsibility and makes a number of
>>>>> things legally much easier and better defined, but it's not a totally
>>>>> clear cut, black-and-white distinction.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, you are absolutely right that there are all kinds of legal
>>>>> complications and they should be well researched before incorporating
>>>>> NCSG in any country.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------
> "It is a disgrace to be rich and honoured
> in an unjust state" -Confucius
>  邦有道，贫且贱焉，耻也。邦无道，富且贵焉，耻也
> ------------------------------------------------
> Visiting Prof, Xi'an Jaiotong-Liverpool Univ, Suzhou, China
> Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus), Econ, York U., CANADA
> email: Lanfran at Yorku.ca   Skype: slanfranco
> blog:  https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com
> Phone: +1 613-476-0429 cell: +1 416-816-2852
>
>
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