Opening an account for NPOC, NCUC and NCSG in Estonia

[Raoul Plommer]

Well, at least my messages weren't going through to PC or FC just a few
days ago. I suspect the same situation goes for most people on this list.

-Raoul

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 15:59, Stephanie Perrin <
stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:

> I am sorry folks, but I think we have exhausted this discussion.  Please
> take it to the Finance Committee list, we are losing members on the Discuss
> list.  I am also happy to establish a skype or slack channel for those
> members who are interested, if you insist on continuing the debate, or we
> can move it to the policy committee list.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Stephanie Perrin
>
> NCSG Chair
> On 2019-01-16 04:42, Remmy Nweke wrote:
>
> Hi Stephanie
> Thanks to Ramirez for the intervention.
>
> I am not sure both you and Sam have this kind of account except I am
> missing something.
>
> I thought he opened account for NPOC.
>
> At the same time there will be a cost of operating whatever account we
> eventually decided and must not overlook budgeting or planning for this
> cost alongside every plan.
> Regards
> Remmy
>
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019, 11:30 p.m. Stephanie Perrin <
> stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca wrote:
>
>> Tamir has volunteered to get some legal advice on this from those who
>> understand banking better.  The account is free.  I think Sam's account is
>> on the same basis as mine.  I am looking into business numbers.  I think we
>> have it all in hand.  Sam and Joan and I are actually quite far from each
>> other.  As long as it costs nothing, I think we should stick to this plan,
>> while we investigate all the ramifications of this.
>>
>> Cheers Stephanie
>> On 2019-01-15 16:32, Remmy Nweke wrote:
>>
>> Hi Stephanie
>> Hope this meets you well.
>> Will not be of best interest to leverage the NPOC account which Sam once
>> opened and since you are also within reach to make this the best we can.
>>
>> I had previously suggested we leverage this kind of account before Sam
>> insight came with hope that there should be some kind of Memorandum of
>> Understanding among the Cs and NCSG in the case of any hiccup with hope
>> that will help us navigate the NCSG imbroglio with a given percentage set
>> aside to caution the taxes that is associated with it in the event we have
>> inflows, so that we do not overlabour our volunteers for choosing to serve
>> at the highlevels.
>>
>> May be a revisit will help us all.
>> Remmy
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>>
>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 7:33 PM Stephanie Perrin <
>> stephanie at digitaldiscretion.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for this discussion, Tapani and Moritz.  Obviously, I am
>>> concerned abou this because I have no desire to pay income tax on the
>>> amount potentially coming into my account from the PIR account,
>>> particularly because it is coming form the United States and this would
>>> not, to the best of my knowledge, be covered under the waiver we all sign
>>> as volunteers accepting travel funds from ICANN.  I will be asking my
>>> account for advice on this, at my own expense.  The long arm of the IRS is
>>> not to be underestimated, for us Canadians, and they can be quite arbitrary
>>> about alleging taxes owed.
>>>
>>> Stephanie
>>> On 2019-01-13 06:25, Tapani Tarvainen wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jan 12 23:15, Moritz Bartl (bartl at RENEWABLEFREEDOM.ORG) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> What is being discussed here is _not_ merely "opening a bank account".
>>> What you are discussing is to set up organizations.
>>>
>>> Yes. That is the whole point, specifically to avoid this:
>>>
>>>
>>> If you run an account under your name, or a shared account with
>>> someone else, you have the full legal responsibility.
>>>
>>> Yes. And that is our situation now.
>>>
>>>
>>> But, maybe more importantly, what you receive to this account is
>>> (shared) income. If you don't declare it with your taxes, you are
>>> committing tax fraud.
>>>
>>> This is not correct in general. Rules vary from country to country, of
>>> course, and what you say may be true in some, but certainly not all -
>>> the following applies in at least some I happen to know of.
>>>
>>> All money that comes to your accounts is not income nor should be
>>> declared as such. You can, for example, borrow or lend money, and if
>>> there's no interest involved there's no income either nor any need to
>>> declare such debts with your taxes (at least if your country has no
>>> property tax).
>>>
>>> More to the point, you can use your own account to handle money
>>> belonging to someone else, including an association, without any tax
>>> implications, and in many countries law also recognizes unregistered
>>> or unincorporated associations (with various limitations on what they
>>> can or can't do).
>>>
>>> Whether any incoming money is ultimately taxable or needs to be
>>> declared depends on all kinds of things, but often, e.g., membership
>>> fees are tax exempt.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you buy services, you buy them for you, and they become your
>>> legal responsibility.
>>>
>>> That is not quite accurate either. You can buy services even for an
>>> unregistered association. You will be responsible for them, but if you
>>> try to, say, take them away from the association, its other members
>>> can sue you and win, depending on details of course.
>>>
>>>
>>> You can do so as a group, no problem, but you are not magically "not
>>> a legal entity".
>>>
>>> I'm not quite sure what that means, but certainly even an unregistered
>>> association can be a legal entity.
>>>
>>> Registering or incorporating an association changes the situation, in
>>> particular it limits personal responsibility and makes a number of
>>> things legally much easier and better defined, but it's not a totally
>>> clear cut, black-and-white distinction.
>>>
>>> Anyway, you are absolutely right that there are all kinds of legal
>>> complications and they should be well researched before incorporating
>>> NCSG in any country.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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