[Info] German Court Rules on ICANN Request to Preserve WHOIS Data

Tue Jun 5 04:08:21 EEST 2018

@Monika: I agree, your name had not to be there any longer, so for that
oversight, I apologise. The original answer I had in mind was more
generically about the value of cultural differences in the context, then I
got some coffee, read back Milton's response, and decided that he deserved
a piece of my mind, but your name was still there... sorry for that. It's
just that some academics get under my skin.

@All: Sorry for bothering all with this, but it was long due, as this
apology was due by adding the list for correctness toward Monika. With
this, I go back to my read-only status.

Regards,
Pino

On 5 June 2018 at 06:57, Zalnieriute, Monika <Monika.Zalnieriute at eui.eu>
wrote:

> Thanks, Stephanie,
>
>
> I share Your views as well.
>
>
> @ Pino: while clearly there is something more than just an exchange of
> views here between some of the members here, I never expressed any desire
> to participate in this. I was never mocked like that for simply stating
> my opinion, and there was nothing offensive about that. Even though I
> assume that perhaps most of the attack from Pino was addressed at Milton,
> still my name was included there for simply having similar
> analysis/opinion. I think that apology would be appropriate here, given
> that I have not engaged or wish to engage in any personal attacks, and read
> how the books that I have not yet even written will never be read by anyone
> 😊
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Monika
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca>
> *Sent:* Monday, June 4, 2018 12:32 PM
> *To:* Zalnieriute, Monika; NCSG-DISCUSS at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Info] German Court Rules on ICANN Request to Preserve
> WHOIS Data
>
>
> I actually spent quite a bit of time examining this whole "cultural
> differences" issue when working on my dissertation on ICANN.  As a
> Canadian, I believe there is a difference in the way we approach data
> protection issues in this country despite being swamped with US power and
> influence.  We managed, for instance, to get data protection law in place
> for the private sector.  However, nailing that elusive difference down is
> very difficult, I think, and as Monika says the overwhelming influence of
> economic considerations, path dependency and institutional realities that
> are difficult to change at ICANN define the current situation in my view.
> However, the stupidity, obstinacy and poor risk management of the ICANN
> organization are breath-taking, and I will confess the question WHY does
> keep arising.  It is not as if anyone who has worked in the data protection
> arena has never seen corporate reluctance to add expense or take on
> liability risk....far from it, those are constants.
>
>
> The conclusion I reached is that ICANN has catered to the drivers of the
> US economy in the Information society, and it accommodated law enforcement
> interests who are always seeking ways around administrative impediments to
> access to personal data.  The GAC, in my view, has never stepped up to its
> role in enforcing data protection law, but instead has facilitated law
> enforcement agencies' desires to get around their constitutional
> protections for individuals under criminal law and fundamental rights
> instruments....and that desire, unfortunately, appears to be shared by all
> law enforcement agencies represented at ICANN, including the EU reps.  Now
> that is a cultural difference that could be examined fruitfully, I suspect.
>
>
> As far as the uniqueness of the US approach to data
> protection....commentators on the US lack of respect for personal privacy
> have been around for centuries now, from Dickens to de Toqueville to
> Boorstin. I think it is fascinating, so still worthy of much research.  I
> think Priscilla Regan has written about it very persuasively, and the
> differences are too important to ignore, if we care about data protection
> and the autonomy of the individual in a global society.  But I do tend to
> agree that at ICANN....it's more about the $$$.
>
> Stephanie Perrin
> On 2018-06-04 03:44, Zalnieriute, Monika wrote:
>
> I agree with Milton, that 'cultural differences' explanation does not
> explain a lot not only in the WHOIS context, but I would also add that it
> misses the point in the international data privacy law more generally.
> Political economy considerations, institutional analysis and path
> dependency explains much more. But nonetheless 'cultaralist explanations'
> are often used to obscure the matters, and are very popular at least in the
> legal scholarship. As it does not require any deeper analysis: 'just you
> know, oh, there are cultural differences...'.
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> Dr. Monika Zalnieriute
>
>
>
> Post-Doctoral Fellow @ Melbourne Law School |
>
> The University of Melbourne I law.unimelb.edu.au I
>
> 185 Pelham St, Carlton VIC 3053, Australia I
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=185+Pelham+St,+Carlton+VIC+3053,+Australia+I&entry=gmail&source=g>
>
>
>
> Visiting Fellow @ Center for Media, Data and Society I
>
> Central European University I cmds.ceu.edu I
>
>
>
> Representative @ Executive Committee I
>
> Non-Commercial Stakeholder Group I ICANN I icann.org I
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NCSG-Discuss <NCSG-DISCUSS at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU>
> <NCSG-DISCUSS at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU> on behalf of Mueller, Milton L
> <milton at GATECH.EDU> <milton at GATECH.EDU>
> *Sent:* Monday, June 4, 2018 5:31 AM
> *To:* NCSG-DISCUSS at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
> *Subject:* Re: [Info] German Court Rules on ICANN Request to Preserve
> WHOIS Data
>
> Pino
>
> > Trying to deny cultural
> > differences is the beginning of the end of any form of evolutive
> > cooperation among people.
>
> What? No one denied that cultural differences exist - indeed, there are
> massive cultural differences within Europe, and between regions of the US.
>
> I am simply telling you that the so-called cultural differences have
> little to do with who lines up on which side of the Whois debate in ICANN.
> Economic interests and institutional positions explain a lot more. We gain
> little understanding of the situation by talking about "cultural
> differences" except that you piss off all the non-Europeans and convey a
> kind of smug superiority which isn't earned.
>
> Theories have to stand the test of empirical reality. Before advancing
> your "cultural difference" theory please explain why all the European GAC
> members called upon ICANN to retain all current Whois data collection, for
> example. Does your theory explain this fact? Are they somehow not part of
> European culture? Did they not get the memo? By the way do you know which
> GAC statements I am referring to? Do you know what the GAC is?
>
> Stereotypes such as "USA approach to political science: avoiding any
> divisive subject trying to force political correctness into everything" =
> just bizarre. Pay attention to what is actually happening here. Listen to
> what people actually say, as individuals. Look beyond crude pre-conceived
> generalizations about culture, people, academic disciplines and national
> origin. You've got a lot to learn about the ICANN environment and as you
> learn more I will be more than happy to engage in "debate and strong
> rhetoric" with you.
>
> --MM
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NCSG-Discuss [mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
> <NCSG-DISCUSS at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU>] On Behalf Of
> > Moritz Bartl
> > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2018 9:52 PM
> > To: NCSG-DISCUSS at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [Info] German Court Rules on ICANN Request to Preserve WHOIS
> > Data
> >
> > On 04.06.2018 01:15, Giuseppe De Francesco wrote:
> Only by dealing with who we are we can
> > > overcome what is divisive to learn cooperation. This is one of the
> > > problems in USA approach to political science: avoiding any divisive
> > > subject trying to force political correctness into everything. This as
> > > well is due to strong cultural differences: Mediterranean
> > > civilizations thrive in debate and love strong rethorics applied to
> > > arguing cases without hiding differences. Avoiding to talk about
> > > differences is not helpful, actually it will cause even wider divides
> > > on the long run because each side will be in denioal until can no
> longer keep
> > it silent.
> > > This is a major problem in how public policies are analysed drafted,
> > > at least this is my opinion.
> >
> > Thanks Pino, I agree wholeheartedly with this and your earlier statement.
> >
> > While I'm at it, I want to congratulate the court on its well-informed
> decision.
> > Sorry, but I don't know if I have to laugh or cry at the ICANN statement
> about
> > not achieving "the clarity that ICANN was seeking".
> > Sorry, but who is the individual who wrote this? Do they think people are
> > stupid?
> >
> > Greetings to everyone from Earth, Europe, Germany, Bavaria, Augsburg,
> >
> > Moritz
>
>
>
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-- 
<https://about.me/pinodefrancesco?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb>
Giuseppe (Pino) De Francesco
about.me/pinodefrancesco
<https://about.me/pinodefrancesco?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_medium=email_sig&utm_campaign=gmail_api&utm_content=thumb>
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