<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I support this approach.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Martín<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 29 Jan 2018, at 13:52, Dr. Tatiana Tropina <<a href="mailto:t.tropina@mpicc.de" class="">t.tropina@mpicc.de</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
  
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  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">All,</p><p class="">I support Rafik's approach.</p><p class="">1) we can submit the comment supporting the model 3.</p><p class="">2) we can tweak 2b and look more thoroughly at eco meanwhile and
      clarify some things that are not clear there for me yet - like LEA
      access and some other. <br class="">
    </p><p class="">3) as we have to be rational, we can bargain further with a mix
      of 3 and 2b, if needed. <br class="">
    </p><p class="">Cheers,</p><p class="">Tanya <br class="">
    </p>
    <br class="">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/01/18 08:55, Rafik Dammak wrote:<br class="">
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAH5sThkBPR8Gzd0Yr6GQS=-LNr98OnAcXitiq5=9qp7uGf1UQg@mail.gmail.com" class="">
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      <div dir="ltr" class="">
        <div class="gmail_extra">Hi,</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">while I checked the 3 models, I am not
          familiar with the eco model or comment and so making any
          judgment hard. is it similar to one of the models or something
          totally different proposal?</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">maybe as context, we should recall that
          those models are supposed to be interim solutions. One risk
          with model 2b or a similar (eco?) is what French calls "le
          temporaire qui dure", a lasting temporary. It means having a
          workaround that will become de facto the solution with all its
          drawbacks and we won't have a real say in the process such
          accreditation or certification (we can learn from the current
          discussion on implementing of PPSAI and how staff views differ
          from the policy).</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">let's think in practical fashion here:</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">- we got a deadline and need to submit
          a comment</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">- the discussion is still continuing
          e.g. webinar this week and beyond</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">- there are calls for extension by BC
          and IPC because they want to propose more models beyond the 3
          tabled.</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">I guess one approach is to have the
          comment saying that the model 3 to meet the current deadline
          because its restrictions is a more safe solution till we move
          for a restrictive layered option (2b or eco model) after a
          real community involvement and discussion. Having a model 3
          used is a real ncentive for everyone to work on a long time
          solution acknowledging all concerns from the different parties
          instead of tricking us to accept an ill-designed option. the
          document made by Stephanie is a starting point for us to work
          on the details in coming months.</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">Best,</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_extra">Rafik</div>
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
          <div class="gmail_quote">2018-01-29 1:14 GMT+09:00 Stephanie
            Perrin <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca</a>></span>:<br class="">
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">I am sorry
                      I let you down.  To be frank, the discussion on
                      the main list was all over the map, my desire to
                      throw my comment out there to be trashed by folks
                      not following these matters was pretty minimal. 
                      However, I have had a complete meltdown with my
                      computer and my ISP, which slowed me down
                      enormously, and there was no room for error.</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">Here are a
                      few compromise positions:</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">1.  I can
                      summarize at the end of the analysis of the
                      different positions, the various views (I
                      acknowledged EFF's position but did not go into
                      it.</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">2.  I can
                      add a more thorough discussion of the law
                      enforcement ask, the IP lawyer ask, etc. and why
                      option 3 deals with those issues successfully.</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">3.  I can
                      discuss the data commissioner's expressed views on
                      these matters.  There will be no support from them
                      for a wholesale cutting off of access for cyber
                      investigators.  IF you have any ideas on how to
                      square that circle, I am all ears.  It is a big
                      problem....while I can be accused of caving in to
                      a moderate position because I have been both a
                      govt policy/legislative wonk and an exec in a
                      privacy commissioner's office, I think you have to
                      acknowledge I have decades of experience fighting
                      off law enforcement in back rooms.  If we want to
                      be taken seriously, we have to acknowledge there
                      is a problem. (it is of course their fault there
                      is a problem, but that is another narrative....)</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">I am also
                      very happy saying there is a wide range of views
                      in NCSG.  But if you want a narrow answer to the
                      question of whether it is 2b or 3, please pay
                      attention to what Goran said in the IPC webinar
                      the other day...do not feel tied to 1,2, or 3, we
                      simply pulled them into models. COmments on all
                      aspects raised, suggestions of other models etc
                      are welcome.</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">SO I think
                      we can say of your models we like 2b for this, 3
                      for that, and our favorite proposal so far is the
                      ECO one.  Strategically, and bearing in mind we
                      still have years of pdps ahead of us and this is
                      an interim measure, supporting the registrars
                      seems to me a good idea, particularly when they
                      have gone to the work and expense they have to
                      produce an excellent proposal.<br class="">
                    </font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">Have to go
                      drop  the dog at camp, perhaps we can talk this
                      evening in LA or tomorrow morning at breakfast?</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">cheers
                      Steph</font></font><br class="">
                </p>
                <div class="">
                  <div class="h5">
                    <div class="m_-8127500588600439297moz-cite-prefix">On
                      2018-01-28 10:36, farzaneh badii wrote:<br class="">
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                      <div dir="ltr" class="">
                        <div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif" class="">I
                          tell you what is sticking in my throat
                          Stephanie: You are way too late and we relied
                          on you and you delivered late. I don't want
                          Law Enforcement be viewed as legitimate force
                          globally and you know where I am from. Does
                          Eco model address my worry?</div>
                      </div>
                      <div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class="">
                        <div class="">
                          <div class="m_-8127500588600439297gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
                            <div dir="ltr" class="">
                              <div class=""><font face="verdana, sans-serif" class="">Farzaneh
                                </font></div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <br class="">
                        <div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at
                          10:29 AM, Stephanie Perrin <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr class="">utoronto.ca</a>></span>
                          wrote:<br class="">
                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                            #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                            <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida
                                    Grande" class="">Well I am sorry that I did
                                    not get the comment in as well. 
                                    There is a lot to read and I have
                                    read it (unlike many).  WE need to
                                    know where the opposition is coming
                                    from.</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida
                                    Grande" class="">The ECO comments have been
                                    out there a while, and they deal
                                    with the models.  There is
                                    absolutely nothing wrong with
                                    endorsing another group's position. 
                                    Their legal analysis is excellent,
                                    in my view.</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida
                                    Grande" class="">Ignoring the reality that
                                    there is a cybercrime problem out
                                    there is, in my view, not a
                                    thoughtful position to take.  I can
                                    attempt to reword it if you point me
                                    to precisely what is sticking in
                                    your throats.  We want layered
                                    access....a failure to support
                                    layered access at this point in time
                                    will set us back years, we finally
                                    have ICANN agreeing to it.</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida
                                    Grande" class="">I am happy to send my
                                    comments in myself if you don't
                                    support them.  I think they are well
                                    informed and realistic.  I think
                                    Option 3 was thrown out there as a
                                    poison pill and I am not taking it.</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida
                                    Grande" class="">let me know.....</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida
                                    Grande" class="">cheers Steph</font></font><br class="">
                              </p>
                              <div class="">
                                <div class="m_-8127500588600439297h5">
                                  <div class="m_-8127500588600439297m_-8128406081380222753moz-cite-prefix">On
                                    2018-01-28 09:50, farzaneh badii
                                    wrote:<br class="">
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                                    <div class="">
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">Hello Stephanie </div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">Is eco model in
                                        the models that offered by
                                        Icann? Is it model 2b which you
                                        supported in the doc you sent
                                        us? If not then we cannot
                                        support it now. I suggest going
                                        for the highest protection now
                                        until we work out something
                                        better. You can always go down
                                        from highest protection to
                                        layered access etc but for now
                                        and since we don't have much
                                        time to reach consensus I think
                                        we can stick to model 3.  I wish
                                        you had sent us your document
                                        sooner so that we could work on
                                        it. Also your argument for not
                                        supporting model 3 in the
                                        document is not really based on
                                        substance it's based on the fact
                                        that it won't get support in the
                                        community. There is a May
                                        deadline. Community can come up
                                        with consensus after the
                                        deadline on another leas
                                        protective model.  but ICANN org
                                        can't wait! <br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
                                      </div>
                                      <div dir="auto" class="">I suggest pc
                                        members weigh in on this
                                        deadline is tomorrow and we
                                        would like to know our positoon
                                        before the intersessional.</div>
                                      <br class="">
                                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                                        <div class="">On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at
                                          9:17 AM Stephanie Perrin <<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoront<wbr class="">o.ca</a>>
                                          wrote:<br class="">
                                        </div>
                                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                                          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                          <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">I
                                                  will try to get the
                                                  revised comments on
                                                  the models that have
                                                  been submitted in
                                                  before I run for  the
                                                  plane at 2 EDT...but
                                                  that may not happen. 
                                                  The legal analysis
                                                  will come next week,
                                                  it is a lot harder and
                                                  more complex....but I
                                                  want to get my
                                                  questions on the
                                                  table.  It will be a
                                                  long time before this
                                                  is over....</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">We
                                                  need to endorse the
                                                  ECO model very
                                                  strongly, in my view. 
                                                  While option 3 looks
                                                  good, it is rather
                                                  unworkable.<br class="">
                                                </font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">cheers
                                                  SP</font></font><br class="">
                                            </p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
                                            <div class="m_-8127500588600439297m_-8128406081380222753m_6396244989369319936moz-cite-prefix">On
                                              2018-01-27 14:09, Ayden
                                              Férdeline wrote:<br class="">
                                            </div>
                                            <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                                              <div class="">Thanks Rafik</div>
                                              <div class=""> <br class="">
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">I’m going to hold off
                                                on endorsing this for
                                                24 hours until I read
                                                the comments
                                                currently being drafted
                                                by Stephanie.  </div>
                                              <div class=""> <br class="">
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">To be clear, this is
                                                not to say that I do not
                                                endorse this statement.
                                                It sounds logical to me
                                                and consistent with our
                                                principles. But if
                                                Stephanie has a 15-page
                                                document coming I’d like
                                                to make sure we’re being
                                                consistent in our
                                                messaging. </div>
                                              <div class=""> <br class="">
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">Of course, being so
                                                close to the final day
                                                for submissions, I’ll
                                                write again on-list
                                                tomorrow in the absence
                                                of any other statements
                                                being on the table, as
                                                we cannot miss this
                                                submission deadline. </div>
                                              <div class=""> <br class="">
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">Sincere thanks to
                                                Milton for drafting
                                                this. </div>
                                              <div class=""> <br class="">
                                              </div>
                                              <div class="">Best wishes, Ayden</div>
                                              <div class=""> <br class="">
                                              </div>
                                              <div id="m_-8127500588600439297m_-8128406081380222753m_6396244989369319936protonmail_mobile_signature_block" class="">Sent
                                                from ProtonMail Mobile</div>
                                              <div class=""> <br class="">
                                                <div class="">
                                                  <div class=""> <br class="">
                                                  </div>
                                                  On Sat, Jan 27, 2018
                                                  at 10:50, Rafik Dammak
                                                  <<a href="mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">rafik.dammak@gmail.com</a>>
                                                  wrote:</div>
                                                <blockquote class="m_-8127500588600439297m_-8128406081380222753m_6396244989369319936protonmail_quote" type="cite">
                                                  <div dir="auto" class="">
                                                    <div class="">Hi all,
                                                      <div dir="auto" class=""> <br class="">
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div dir="auto" class="">We
                                                        got a comment
                                                        for the GDPR
                                                        compliance
                                                        model. The
                                                        deadline for
                                                        submission ins
                                                        the 29th Jan,
                                                        which is the
                                                        coming monday.
                                                        We need act
                                                        quickly within
                                                        this weekend .</div>
                                                      <div dir="auto" class=""> <br class="">
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div dir="auto" class="">Best,</div>
                                                      <div dir="auto" class=""> <br class="">
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div dir="auto" class="">Rafik </div>
                                                      <br class="">
                                                      <div class="gmail_quote">----------
                                                        Forwarded
                                                        message
                                                        ---------- <br class="">
                                                        From: "Mueller,
                                                        Milton L" <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">milton@gatech.edu</a>>
                                                        <br class="">
                                                        Date: Jan 26,
                                                        2018 6:05 PM <br class="">
                                                        Subject:
                                                        [NCSG-Discuss]
                                                        Comments on the
                                                        Whois compliance
                                                        models <br class="">
                                                        To: <<a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@listserv.syr.edu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">NCSG-DISCUSS@listserv.syr.edu</a><wbr class="">>
                                                        <br class="">
                                                        Cc: <br class="">
                                                        <br type="attribution" class="">
                                                        <blockquote class="m_-8127500588600439297m_-8128406081380222753m_6396244989369319936quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
                                                          <div link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" lang="EN-US" class="">
                                                          <div class="m_-8127500588600439297m_-8128406081380222753m_6396244989369319936m_-2216294355849967392WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">I
                                                          offer the
                                                          following as a
                                                          first draft of
                                                          the NCSG
                                                          position on
                                                          the 12 January
                                                          2018 call for
                                                          comments
                                                          released by
                                                          ICANN org. </p><div class=""> 
                                                          <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal">Principles
                                                          </p><p class="MsoNormal">Our
                                                          evaluation of
                                                          the models
                                                          offered by
                                                          ICANN are
                                                          based on three
                                                          fundamental
                                                          principles. No
                                                          model that
                                                          fails to
                                                          conform to all
                                                          three is
                                                          acceptable to
                                                          the NCSG. </p><div class=""> 
                                                          <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal">1.
                                                          The purpose of
                                                          whois must be
                                                          strictly tied
                                                          to ICANN's
                                                          mission. That
                                                          is, the data
                                                          that is
                                                          collected and
                                                          the data that
                                                          are published
                                                          must directly
                                                          and
                                                          demonstrably
                                                          contribute to
                                                          ICANN's
                                                          mission as
                                                          defined in
                                                          Article 1 of
                                                          its new
                                                          bylaws. We
                                                          reject any
                                                          definition of
                                                          Whois purpose
                                                          that is based
                                                          on the way
                                                          people happen
                                                          to make use of
                                                          data that can
                                                          be accessed
                                                          indiscriminately
                                                          in a public
                                                          directory. The
                                                          fact that
                                                          certain people
                                                          currently use
                                                          Whois for any
                                                          purpose does
                                                          not mean that
                                                          the purpose of
                                                          Whois is to
                                                          provide thick
                                                          data about the
                                                          domain and its
                                                          registrant to
                                                          anyone who
                                                          wants it for
                                                          any reason. </p><div class=""> 
                                                          <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal">2.
                                                          Whois service,
                                                          like the DNS
                                                          itself, should
                                                          be globally
                                                          uniform and
                                                          not vary by
                                                          jurisdiction.
                                                          ICANN was
                                                          created to
                                                          provide
                                                          globalized
                                                          governance of
                                                          the DNS so
                                                          that it would
                                                          continue to be
                                                          globally
                                                          compatible and
                                                          coordinated.
                                                          Any solution
                                                          that involves
                                                          fragmenting
                                                          the policies
                                                          and practices
                                                          of Whois along
                                                          jurisdictional
                                                          lines is not
                                                          desirable. </p><div class=""> 
                                                          <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal">3.
                                                          No tiered
                                                          access
                                                          solution that
                                                          involves
                                                          establishing
                                                          new criteria
                                                          for access can
                                                          feasibly be
                                                          created in the
                                                          next 3 months.
                                                          We would
                                                          strongly
                                                          resist
                                                          throwing the
                                                          community into
                                                          a hopeless
                                                          rush to come
                                                          up with
                                                          entirely new
                                                          policies,
                                                          standards and
                                                          practices
                                                          involving
                                                          tiered access
                                                          to data, and
                                                          we do not want
                                                          ICANN staff to
                                                          invent a
                                                          policy that is
                                                          not subject to
                                                          community
                                                          review and
                                                          approval.  </p><div class=""> 
                                                          <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal">Based
                                                          on these three
                                                          principles, we
                                                          believe that
                                                          Model 3 is the
                                                          only viable
                                                          option
                                                          available.
                                                          Model 3
                                                          minimizes the
                                                          data publicly
                                                          displayed to
                                                          that which is
                                                          required for
                                                          maintaining
                                                          the stability,
                                                          security and
                                                          resiliency of
                                                          the DNS. Model
                                                          3 could be
                                                          applied across
                                                          the board, and
                                                          would be
                                                          presumptively
                                                          legal
                                                          regardless of
                                                          which
                                                          jurisdiction
                                                          the registrar,
                                                          registry or
                                                          registrant are
                                                          in. And Model
                                                          3 relies on
                                                          established
                                                          legal due
                                                          process for
                                                          gaining access
                                                          to additional
                                                          information. </p><div class=""> 
                                                          <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal">There
                                                          is room for
                                                          discussion
                                                          about how much
                                                          data could be
                                                          publicly
                                                          displayed
                                                          under Model 3
                                                          consistent
                                                          with ICANN's
                                                          mission. E.g.,
                                                          it may be
                                                          within ICANN's
                                                          mission to
                                                          include
                                                          additional
                                                          data in the
                                                          public record,
                                                          such as an
                                                          email address
                                                          for the
                                                          technical
                                                          contact and
                                                          even possibly
                                                          the name of
                                                          the
                                                          registrant. </p><div class=""> 
                                                          <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal">The
                                                          process of
                                                          gaining access
                                                          to additional
                                                          data in Model
                                                          1 is
                                                          completely
                                                          unacceptable.
Self-certification by any third party requestor is, we believe, not
                                                          compliant with
                                                          GDPR nor does
                                                          is such access
                                                          justified by
                                                          the purpose of
                                                          Whois or
                                                          ICANN's
                                                          mission. </p><div class=""> 
                                                          <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal">Model
                                                          2 might
                                                          possibly be
                                                          acceptable if
                                                          an suitable
                                                          set of
                                                          criteria and
                                                          processes were
                                                          devised, but
                                                          it simply is
                                                          not feasible
                                                          for such a
                                                          certification
                                                          program to be
                                                          developed in 3
                                                          months. A
                                                          certification
                                                          program thrown
                                                          together in a
                                                          rush poses
                                                          huge risks for
                                                          loopholes,
                                                          poor
                                                          procedures,
                                                          and a legal
                                                          challenge to
                                                          ICANN, either
                                                          from DPAs or
                                                          from
                                                          individuals
                                                          affected. </p><div class=""> 
                                                          <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal">Dr.
                                                          Milton L.
                                                          Mueller </p><p class="MsoNormal">Professor,
                                                          School of
                                                          Public Policy
                                                          </p><p class="MsoNormal">Georgia
                                                          Institute of
                                                          Technology </p><div class=""> 
                                                          <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=""> 
                                                          <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
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                                                          </div>
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