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<p>All,</p>
<p>Sorry for weighing in later -- first family holidays this year
and then last minute travels. This letter required more attention
than I had due to my limited bandwidth. <br>
</p>
<p>I agree with those suggesting removing the last para. I am not
even talking about how we would look with the threat of
enforcement or whether it is politically right. <br>
</p>
<p>What I can say here as a lawyer, that unless we are 100% sure
when and how we procedural are going to enforce this threat *and*
unless we are 100% sure that we are going to do this -- it
shouldn't be there. <br>
</p>
<p>I am not even sure how procedurally this issue can be addressed
by us in the EU courts (DPAs - yes). </p>
<p>Waving the legal threats should be possible only if we are going
to do this immediately after getting a negative answer. Taking
into account the GDPR implementation timeline, we can easily be
ignored by ICANN legal. Furthermore, the threats could water down
our main messages. <br>
</p>
<p>We can continue the discussion about legal tools to pursue our
position though. But for now the letter is great without the last
para. Ayden, thank you so much for your impressive work on
drafting it. <br>
</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Tanya <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/10/17 08:50, Matthew Shears
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:69006d0a-d2bf-926a-c1dc-b45a1a5be907@intpolicy.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p>Hi all</p>
<p>I would like to suggest that the letter minus the last para be
submitted (I am proposing one or two other edits in the text).
There are many important points in the remaining text that make
it a valuable contribution (thank you Ayden and others for the
drafting) - particularly reinforcing the importance of outside
counsel's input. The possibility of a campaign, as well as how
we build a solutions oriented approach to GDPR as noted below by
Rafik, should be discussed face to face in Abu Dhabi - these are
very important issues, and should be given appropriate time and
space to address in person rather than over e-mail.<br>
</p>
<p>Matthew<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/10/2017 00:42, Rafik Dammak
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH5sThmxyrfQeZkuAChNuLQvbPhw=g5qcZ1OfDf2gtkKgnx80w@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">Hi Ayden,</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Thanks for your response and
points taken.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">as I suggested we should go gradually
into escalation and leave space for ICANN and staff to
respond to our requests. We are enough assertive at this
stage and we can be more later on. it also gives us more
time to think about our strategy and get a plan
(implementation) for the campaign and the resources needed
for that. it is not empty words and we shouldn't put a
threat what we don't have as a group a clear idea and
support how we will do so. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">I am really looking for discussion(s)
in Abu Dhabi and we should organize several meetings for
that to get an action plan and clear idea what we will do
and how. if people are ok with this, we can organize
informal breakfast meetings to work on that (unfortunately
it is too late to book room). </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">From other discussions in RDS skype
channel, I understand there is a question on what we can
propose solutions, way to go forward and sharing our
positions, and Stephanie volunteered to draft that. I
proposed that we discuss GDPR at meeting with Board but that
didn't get enough attraction.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">we should finalize the letter by
tomorrow. and I really ask the rest of Policy Committee
members to respond and comment. it is an improtant topic for
us as group.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Best,</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Rafik</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"> <br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-10-16 0:33 GMT+09:00 Ayden
Férdeline <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi Rafik,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for your comments.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think we need to be explicit with what we are
asking, clear that our words are not an empty threat,
and definitive that consequences will follow if ICANN
does not meet its obligations under the GDPR.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am happy for us to send the attached letter with
Martin's revisions, though I think it does now sound
like an empty threat. The ambiguity sounds to me like
we do not know what our course of action will be, when
that is incorrect. In the previous draft we were very
clear: if ICANN does not comply with European data
protection law, we will evail ourselves next May of
the Data Protection Commissioners and if necessary,
see you in Court. But we have spent a week trying to
get comments on this letter and speaking only for
myself, my motivation is now fading. We have other
comments to write; so if there is consensus on this
letter as attached, we might as well send it. If we do
not, let's not.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have tried multiple times over the past two weeks
to have a conversation around next steps. I have tried
on the policy call, on this list, on Skype channels to
talk campaigns. We all have our own interests at ICANN
and follow different topics; I get that. This is
something I am following so I have more time for it.
And it is for that reason that I say, we are not going
to get allies like AccessNow or EDRi if we ourselves
cannot take the time to discuss a path forward. And I
feel very strongly that if we reach out to others, we
should not be asking for much more than a signature on
a letter. It needs to be a part of a campaign that we
are leading. We cannot expect them to take the lead
here. We are in the ICANN working groups, being
ignored and observing ICANN's non-compliance, and our
civil society members have their own priorities which
I am sure they have already budgeted for for FY18. So
this is on us. I think a face-to-face meeting in Abu
Dhabi - separate from our policy committee meeting if
possible - is essential if we decide to take this
campaign forward, and I think we should.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But we might decide that we will not launch a
campaign next year, because we are not committed to
this issue. I kind of get that feeling.<span
class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ayden<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></span>
<blockquote type="cite"
class="m_-3486001290855872059protonmail_quote"><span
class="">
<div>-------- Original Message --------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [NCSG-PC] [Draft] Letter to ICANN
re: BC and IPC correspondence<br>
</div>
</span>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>Local Time: 15 October 2017 3:11 AM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: 15 October 2017 02:11<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a
href="mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rafik.dammak@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Stephanie Perrin <<a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca</a>><br>
</div>
<div>Martin Pablo Silva Valent <<a
href="mailto:mpsilvavalent@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpsilvavalent@gmail.com</a>>,
Ayden Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>,
<a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>
<<a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">Hi all,<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">thanks for those
participating in the editing. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">I understand the
concerns about using a threat language. I am
wondering how much we should be strategical
here. We should escalate gradually (and
assertively) depending on the situation, but
putting nuclear option, in the beginning, may
not work. There is a sense of emergency here
and we have to act quickly.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">I believe we should
have a discussion about the strategy we should
follow and if we want to go into the campaign
path, getting media attention and so we would
need to have a clear plan, get allies and
experienced folks to support us. As I shared
in RDS channel, there was some effort during
Privacy/Proxy service public comments and we
can learn from that. I brought that
experience because it let many outsiders be
aware of the situation and send their
comments. I understand that is a different
context but we can start by leveraging our
membership: EDRi, EFF, Accessnow and many
others, I volunteer with others to reach them.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>I think we can shape a letter expressing
strongly our concerns and so we must
continue the discussion in Abud Dhabi for
next steps ( we will need to allocate time
for that on formal and informal meetings) to
outline a plan to follow.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>let's finalize this letter, it is timing
will be just 2 weeks prior to Abu Dhabi
meeting.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Best,<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Rafik<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>2017-10-15 5:21 GMT+09:00 Stephanie
Perrin <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca</a>></span>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><span style="font-size:undefinedpx"
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font"
style="font-family:"Lucida
Grande"">Very nice edit.</span></span><br>
</p>
<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059HOEnZb"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059colour"
style="color:rgb(136,136,136)">
<p><span
style="font-size:undefinedpx"
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:"Lucida
Grande"">Stephanie.</span></span><br>
</p>
</span></span>
<div>
<div class="m_-3486001290855872059h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-cite-prefix">On
2017-10-14 13:39, Martin Pablo
Silva Valent wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>
<div
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:11pt">I
won’t mess the document,
so I put it here: I
basically took out two
phrases: the one were it
says we would apply to
DP authorities, and the
ending were it says we
would go to court.</span></span><br>
</div>
<div
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:14.6667px"></span></span><br>
</div>
<div
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:14.6667px">This is strong and vague enough for us to do
whatever we feel
necessary and we outline
the hard-risk real risk
of ignoring GDPR (a
subtle hint if you may).</span></span><br>
</div>
<div
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:14.6667px"></span></span><br>
</div>
<div
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:11pt">"As
active stakeholders in
the ICANN
multistakeholder
community, we want to
participate in the
policy changes which
will see ICANN come into
compliance with data
protection law after a
19-year record of
sweeping it under the
rug. However, if we are
excluded from the
process, and feel that
once again certain
stakeholders with
everything to gain and
nothing to lose from the
collection of end-user
data are getting the ear
of senior management,
whilst we get the cold
shoulder, we are afraid
that we will have
to take all actions at
our disposal
regarding ICANN’s
continued, 19-year
streak of non-compliance
with data protection
law. As we are sure you
are aware, the new GDPR
gives individuals the
right to sue the Data
Protection Authorities
for failure to protect
end-user rights, which </span><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size" style="font-size:14.6667px">ultimately
will impact in the DNS
use and ICANN itself."</span></span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font"
style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size" style="font-size:11pt"></span></span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font"
style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size" style="font-size:11pt">Cheers,</span></span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font"
style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size" style="font-size:11pt">Martín</span></span><br>
</div>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Oct 14, 2017, at 1:20
PM, Ayden Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi Martin,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you very much
for reviewing the draft
letter. I appreciate you
taking the time. Could I
please ask that you edit
the Google Doc directly
and massage the final
paragraph, so that you
are happy with it? I
think we do need to be
forceful and punch back.
I disagree that we
should only go through
the GAC or follow GNSO
processes to be heard.
We are, by design, being
excluded from the
conversation on this
issue, and a flaw in the
multistakeholder model
has become apparent (at
least to me). I think we
should avail ourselves
of all legal avenues
through which we can
seek a resolution to
gTLD policies so to
protect fundamental
rights, such as the
right to privacy. To box
ourselves in and to
forever subject
ourselves only to a
process flawed by design
would, I think, be a
mistake. Thanks again.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best wishes, Ayden<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-protonm_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote">
<div>-------- Original
Message --------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re:
[NCSG-PC] [Draft] Letter
to ICANN re: BC and IPC
correspondence<br>
</div>
<div>Local Time: 14
October 2017 4:38 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: 14 October
2017 15:38<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a
href="mailto:mpsilvavalent@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mpsilvavalent@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Ayden Férdeline
<<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div>Stephanie Perrin <<a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoront<wbr>o.ca</a>>,
<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>
<<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To help this letter
hit the spot, is already
perfect, but for the
last paragraph:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1) Threatening to go
with a public official
NCSG campaign with State
agencies of Europe to
hit ICANN, to force the
MS model, is a very bad
idea. As NCSG, we should
only go to governments
through the GAC and keep
using our GNSO
procedures to complain
if we are being left
out. Going berserk on
ICANN with borrowed
state power breaks the
whole model, something
that is way beyond what
we need to do in this
case. It’s a dangerous
precedent. Why Europe?
What about other
jurisdictions? other
states? We can still
coordinate with the GAC,
and as non-commercial
activists we can do
public campaigns and
state claims in defense
of our rights, but it
should not be an NCSG
action. We have
procedures to escalate
the problem inside the
model, let’s use them
fearless. Let’s call the
ombudsman, keep writing
to the board, fill the
open mic, massively go
into working group
coordinating our
members, etc (we have
councilors!). Asking
data protection agencies
to put pressure for us,
in NCSG name, outside
the process we set for
ourselves is not ok, is
a pandora box of
precedent.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2) Even if we all
agree that NCSG should
ask a governmental
agency to put it’s nose
in the GNSO process,
which I am NOT saying we
do, the paragraph hits a
big brick wall of
rhetoric problems. If
you read the letter, the
letter is perfect, is
reasonable, is harsh, it
makes you blush to think
the issue is at such a
poor situation. Is
backed by other
stakeholder, opposite to
you. Once you read the
threat you loose all the
communication bridges
you build before in the
letter. Anyone with some
knowledge of the GNSO
will stop thinking on
the ICANN problem of
addressing GDPR, they
will read that NCSG is
threatening, to go to EU
to force ICANN, and the
multistakeholder model. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3) The letter is
perfect, we do need a
punch in the last
paragraph that states
both our level of
concern, alert and the
demand to be heard. But
we should threaten to
use either specific
tools of the ICANN
Process, or a vague
thing that allows us to
afterward choose the
best tool.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,<br>
</div>
<div>Martín<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Oct 13, 2017,
at 6:55 PM, Ayden
Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Hi Martin,
thank you very
much for this
feedback. I take
it on board and
hear what you are
saying. However, I
am afraid that I
do disagree. I
think we need to
be forceful. From
what I understand
we have been
ignored and
sidelined for 19
years. I think it
is important we
punch back and let
ICANN know that we
are serious about
being able to
input into this
conversation, or <i>we
will</i> avail
ourselves of
alternative
mechanisms. To
that end, we will
need to start
thinking about
campaign tactics
too -- that is
something I have
been thinking
about for next
year; what are the
next steps, when
do we launch, and
what do we need? I
think the time for
diplomacy was a
year ago (or
longer), and now
is the time for
action.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div>Warm
wishes, Ayden <br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-protonm_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote"
type="cite">
<div>--------
Original Message
--------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re:
[NCSG-PC]
[Draft] Letter
to ICANN re: BC
and IPC
correspondence<br>
</div>
<div>Local Time:
13 October 2017
10:49 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: 13
October 2017
21:49<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a
href="mailto:mpsilvavalent@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpsilvavalent@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Ayden
Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div>Stephanie
Perrin <<a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoront<wbr>o.ca</a>>,
<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a> <<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I’ve been
following the
doc, it looks
great. I would
be much more
mellow and
diplomatic in
the las
paragraph, not
threaten things,
like going
public with a
campaign with
data protection
agencies. I
think we
shouldn’t
promote agencies
as policeman of
ICANN, I
understand we
are waiving that
in the event the
multi-stakeholder model fails to include as as stakeholder, yet, I
wouldn’t set
that as
precedent and I
do not recommend
to make it
before the
actual exclusion
of the process
happen, much
less by by
written official
letter. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do believe
that we have to
talk about
alternative
strategies, but
not in a letter
like this, is a
very big threat
with deep
implication, I
wouldn’t
recommend to go
with that nor
sign it as
official NCSG
position.
Reminder: ONLY
ABOUT THE LAST
PARAGRAPH, the
rest looks
amazing and I
still think we
should make
clear the point
we must be taken
in account. Just
take away the
threat. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,<br>
</div>
<div>Martín<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>On Oct
13, 2017, at
6:42 PM, Ayden
Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Thanks
Stephanie, I
tend to agree.
I have
attached a
copy of the
letter which
includes the
Chair's name.<br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div>Ayden <br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-protonm_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote"
type="cite">
<div>--------
Original
Message
--------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject:
Re: [NCSG-PC]
[Draft] Letter
to ICANN re:
BC and IPC
correspondence<br>
</div>
<div>Local
Time: 13
October 2017
10:33 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time:
13 October
2017 21:33<br>
</div>
<div>From:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.ut<wbr>oronto.ca</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Ayden
Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc<wbr>@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<p><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493font">It should be
signed by the
Chair on
behalf of, in
my view.</span></span><br>
</p>
<p><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493font">cheers Steph</span></span><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-cite-prefix">On
2017-10-13
17:27, Ayden
Férdeline
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>Hi all,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have
done some
final
polishing to
the letter,
and have
attached a
proposed final
draft. I hope
we may be able
to reach
agreement soon
on sending
this letter.
Also - I was
wondering,
should it
carry a name,
perhaps of the
Chair, or is
it okay to be
signed 'NCSG'?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div>Many
thanks,
Ayden <br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-protonm_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote">
<div>--------
Original
Message
--------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject:
Re: [NCSG-PC]
[Draft] Letter
to ICANN re:
BC and IPC
correspondence<br>
</div>
<div>Local
Time: 13
October 2017
7:59 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time:
13 October
2017 18:59<br>
</div>
<div>From:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To:
Stephanie
Perrin<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca></a>,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.nc<wbr>sg.is</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think
it is the
perfect tone
for this
letter. As we
saw in Hong
Kong this
month,
our public
silence is
being
manipulated
and used to
make the false
claim that we
are being
consulted with
and are an
integral part
of ICANN's
efforts to
comply with
the GDPR, when
we are
not. Thanks
for these
edits
Stephanie. We
need to
reshape the
narrative and
get it all
documented. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Ayden
Férdeline<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>Sent from
ProtonMail
Mobile<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Fri,
Oct 13, 2017
at 7:14 pm,
Stephanie
Perrin <<a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoront<wbr>o.ca</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote"
type="cite">
<p><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:"Lucida
Grande"">I
jumped in
today
(apologies for
being
anonymous,
always forget
my google
password) and
made quite a
few changes.
I like the
idea, but I
think we
should be a
bit more
specific. In
terms of
informing the
DPAs....Swineheart is trying to get people to the IWGDPT meeting in
Paris, I think
everyone has
been briefed
at the data
commissioners
meeting in
Hong kong
(remember a
whole crew
from ICANN
went) that
there is a
draft
statement
coming. So
they know we
have been
briefing them
for two years,
we need to
sharpen that a
bit.</span></span><br>
</p>
<p><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:"Lucida
Grande"">Let
me know if you
think it was a
bit too
strong. I
will confess,
I am losing my
patience with
this lot.
They spend
gobs of money
gadding around
trying to
nullify end
user rights.
Totally ignore
us. Ought to
be ashamed of
themselves.</span></span><br>
</p>
<p><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:"Lucida
Grande"">Stephanie</span></span><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-cite-prefix">On
2017-10-13
07:05, Rafik
Dammak wrote:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
class="gmail_extra">hi,<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">reminder
for everyone
to review the
letter and
share
comments.<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">Best,<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div>Rafik<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<div>2017-10-11
4:28 GMT+09:00
Ayden
Férdeline<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a><wbr>></span>:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div>Also - I
have now
revised this
letter again
taking into
account the
helpful
feedback that
was received
over the past
48 hours;
moving
forward,
please feel
free to edit
the document
directly if
you have any
changes you'd
like to see
made. Thanks!<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493HOEnZb"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059colour"
style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"></span></span><br>
</div>
<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493HOEnZb"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059colour" style="color:rgb(136,136,136)">
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div>Ayden <br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-protonm_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</span></span>
<blockquote
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_quote"
type="cite"><span>
<div>--------
Original
Message
--------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject:
Re: [NCSG-PC]
[Draft] Letter
to ICANN re:
BC and IPC
correspondence<br>
</div>
</span>
<div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493h5">
<div>Local
Time: 10
October 2017
7:44 PM<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time:
10 October
2017 18:44<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>From:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>To: Rafik
Dammak <<a
href="mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rafik.dammak@gmail.com</a>><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>ncsg-pc
<<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi Rafik,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Thank you
very much for
your comments.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would
be great if we
could finalise
this letter by
Friday and
perhaps even
send it out
that day. I
very much
welcome edits
directly to
the Google
Doc; everyone
on this list,
please help
write it and
shape its
contents!<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would
also like to
propose that
we write a
monthly letter
to ICANN on
this topic
until May
2018, when
enforcement of
the GDPR comes
into effect.
That way we
can document
for the data
protection
authorities
that we have
been informing
ICANN in
excess of six
months of
their need to
comply with
this
regulation.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The
feedback from
Nick Shorey on
the PC call
today - that
we need to
help engineer
a conversation
between the
DPAs and their
GAC
representatives
- is an
interesting
one, and one
which seemed
to have
support in the
chat. How
would we go
about this,
however? Do we
write to the
GAC? Do we
express this
desire to them
in Abu Dhabi
during our
face-to-face
with them?<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Best
wishes,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ayden <span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-protonm_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_quote">
<div>--------
Original
Message
--------<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>Subject:
Re: [NCSG-PC]
[Draft] Letter
to ICANN re:
BC and IPC
correspondence<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>Local
Time: 10
October 2017
5:33 AM<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time:
10 October
2017 04:33<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>From:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rafik.dammak@gmail.com</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>To: Ayden
Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>ncsg-pc
<<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div
class="gmail_extra">Hi
Ayden,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">Thanks
for the draft,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">it
is important
we make a
point to voice
our concerns
and influence
the process.
as we
discussed
before here
and on the
last call we
got 2 problems
1- our
representatives
in taskforce
not being
informed 2-
the last Data
protection
conference
(that is
already
passed)<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">for
the current
letter, indeed
we should
tweak the
language there
;) while we
keep the
substance.
reading IPC
letter, it
seems they
reject the use
case matrix
and I
understood
from previous
comments you
think that
doesn't include
our
perspective. I
add few
comments but I
think we can
add more, in
particular,
our concerns
in general
regarding the
process and
not just
responding to
BC and IPC
requests.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">I
ask other PC
members to
review the
letter and
share their
thoughts. I
put the GDPR
as a
discussion
item for today
call. We need
a deadline to
get this done
and prior to
Abud Dhabi
meeting if we
may want to
continue the
discussion
there and
depending on
how things go
with the
cross-community
session. I
propose that
we reach a new
version by
this Friday.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">Best,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">Rafik <span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<div>2017-10-08
23:07
GMT+09:00
Ayden
Férdeline<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a><wbr>></span>:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div>Hi,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have
drafted a
letter to
ICANN in
response to
the recent
correspondence
received from
the BC and the
IPC.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/13ujYOpJFL0eNvjQCiNmsduFFbiUPQC5Wmbe9wHC2K6Q/edit?usp=sharing"
title="You can
read/edit it
here."
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">You can read/edit it here.</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span>I
know the
language is
provocative
(intentionally
so), but this
is a first
draft -- and
if you
disapprove
please provide
alternative
language.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,
Ayden<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>______________________________<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"><wbr> </span>_________________<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>NCSG-PC
mailing list<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
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<div><br>
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<div><br>
</div>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
NCSG-PC mailing list
<a class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a>
<a class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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</div>
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</blockquote>
<div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
</div>
<div><span><Proposed
Letter - Chair
Name.pdf></span><span class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="m_-3486001290855872059size" style="font-size:12px">_____________________<wbr>__________________________</span></span>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="m_-3486001290855872059size" style="font-size:12px">NCSG-PC
mailing list</span></span>
</div>
<div><a style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a>
</div>
<div><a style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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<div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>______________________________<wbr>_________________
</div>
<div>NCSG-PC mailing list
</div>
<div><a href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a>
</div>
<div><a href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a>
</div>
<div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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<div>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
NCSG-PC mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Matthew Shears
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:matthew@intpolicy.com">matthew@intpolicy.com</a>
+447712472987
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="Skype:mshears">Skype:mshears</a></pre>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
NCSG-PC mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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