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<p>Hi all</p>
<p>I would like to suggest that the letter minus the last para be
submitted (I am proposing one or two other edits in the text).
There are many important points in the remaining text that make it
a valuable contribution (thank you Ayden and others for the
drafting) - particularly reinforcing the importance of outside
counsel's input. The possibility of a campaign, as well as how we
build a solutions oriented approach to GDPR as noted below by
Rafik, should be discussed face to face in Abu Dhabi - these are
very important issues, and should be given appropriate time and
space to address in person rather than over e-mail.<br>
</p>
<p>Matthew<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/10/2017 00:42, Rafik Dammak
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH5sThmxyrfQeZkuAChNuLQvbPhw=g5qcZ1OfDf2gtkKgnx80w@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">Hi Ayden,</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Thanks for your response and
points taken.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">as I suggested we should go gradually
into escalation and leave space for ICANN and staff to respond
to our requests. We are enough assertive at this stage and we
can be more later on. it also gives us more time to think
about our strategy and get a plan (implementation) for the
campaign and the resources needed for that. it is not empty
words and we shouldn't put a threat what we don't have as a
group a clear idea and support how we will do so. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">I am really looking for discussion(s)
in Abu Dhabi and we should organize several meetings for that
to get an action plan and clear idea what we will do and how.
if people are ok with this, we can organize informal breakfast
meetings to work on that (unfortunately it is too late to book
room). </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">From other discussions in RDS skype
channel, I understand there is a question on what we can
propose solutions, way to go forward and sharing our
positions, and Stephanie volunteered to draft that. I proposed
that we discuss GDPR at meeting with Board but that didn't get
enough attraction.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">we should finalize the letter by
tomorrow. and I really ask the rest of Policy Committee
members to respond and comment. it is an improtant topic for
us as group.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Best,</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Rafik</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"> <br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-10-16 0:33 GMT+09:00 Ayden
Férdeline <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi Rafik,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for your comments.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think we need to be explicit with what we are
asking, clear that our words are not an empty threat,
and definitive that consequences will follow if ICANN
does not meet its obligations under the GDPR.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am happy for us to send the attached letter with
Martin's revisions, though I think it does now sound
like an empty threat. The ambiguity sounds to me like we
do not know what our course of action will be, when that
is incorrect. In the previous draft we were very clear:
if ICANN does not comply with European data protection
law, we will evail ourselves next May of the Data
Protection Commissioners and if necessary, see you in
Court. But we have spent a week trying to get comments
on this letter and speaking only for myself, my
motivation is now fading. We have other comments to
write; so if there is consensus on this letter as
attached, we might as well send it. If we do not, let's
not.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have tried multiple times over the past two weeks
to have a conversation around next steps. I have tried
on the policy call, on this list, on Skype channels to
talk campaigns. We all have our own interests at ICANN
and follow different topics; I get that. This is
something I am following so I have more time for it. And
it is for that reason that I say, we are not going to
get allies like AccessNow or EDRi if we ourselves cannot
take the time to discuss a path forward. And I feel very
strongly that if we reach out to others, we should not
be asking for much more than a signature on a letter. It
needs to be a part of a campaign that we are leading. We
cannot expect them to take the lead here. We are in the
ICANN working groups, being ignored and observing
ICANN's non-compliance, and our civil society members
have their own priorities which I am sure they have
already budgeted for for FY18. So this is on us. I think
a face-to-face meeting in Abu Dhabi - separate from our
policy committee meeting if possible - is essential if
we decide to take this campaign forward, and I think we
should.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But we might decide that we will not launch a
campaign next year, because we are not committed to this
issue. I kind of get that feeling.<span class="HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ayden<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></span>
<blockquote type="cite"
class="m_-3486001290855872059protonmail_quote"><span
class="">
<div>-------- Original Message --------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [NCSG-PC] [Draft] Letter to ICANN
re: BC and IPC correspondence<br>
</div>
</span>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>Local Time: 15 October 2017 3:11 AM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: 15 October 2017 02:11<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a href="mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rafik.dammak@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Stephanie Perrin <<a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca</a>><br>
</div>
<div>Martin Pablo Silva Valent <<a
href="mailto:mpsilvavalent@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpsilvavalent@gmail.com</a>>,
Ayden Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>,
<a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>
<<a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">Hi all,<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">thanks for those
participating in the editing. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">I understand the concerns
about using a threat language. I am wondering
how much we should be strategical here. We
should escalate gradually (and assertively)
depending on the situation, but putting nuclear
option, in the beginning, may not work. There is
a sense of emergency here and we have to act
quickly.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">I believe we should have
a discussion about the strategy we should follow
and if we want to go into the campaign path,
getting media attention and so we would need to
have a clear plan, get allies and experienced
folks to support us. As I shared in RDS
channel, there was some effort during
Privacy/Proxy service public comments and we can
learn from that. I brought that experience
because it let many outsiders be aware of the
situation and send their comments. I understand
that is a different context but we can start by
leveraging our membership: EDRi, EFF,
Accessnow and many others, I volunteer with
others to reach them.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>I think we can shape a letter expressing
strongly our concerns and so we must continue
the discussion in Abud Dhabi for next steps (
we will need to allocate time for that on
formal and informal meetings) to outline a
plan to follow.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>let's finalize this letter, it is timing
will be just 2 weeks prior to Abu Dhabi
meeting.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Best,<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Rafik<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>2017-10-15 5:21 GMT+09:00 Stephanie
Perrin <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca</a>></span>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><span style="font-size:undefinedpx"
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font"
style="font-family:"Lucida
Grande"">Very nice edit.</span></span><br>
</p>
<span class="m_-3486001290855872059HOEnZb"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059colour"
style="color:rgb(136,136,136)">
<p><span style="font-size:undefinedpx"
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:"Lucida
Grande"">Stephanie.</span></span><br>
</p>
</span></span>
<div>
<div class="m_-3486001290855872059h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-cite-prefix">On
2017-10-14 13:39, Martin Pablo Silva
Valent wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>
<div
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:11pt">I
won’t mess the document,
so I put it here: I
basically took out two
phrases: the one were it
says we would apply to DP
authorities, and the
ending were it says we
would go to court.</span></span><br>
</div>
<div
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:14.6667px"></span></span><br>
</div>
<div
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:14.6667px">This is strong and vague enough for us to do
whatever we feel necessary
and we outline the
hard-risk real risk of
ignoring GDPR (a subtle
hint if you may).</span></span><br>
</div>
<div
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:14.6667px"></span></span><br>
</div>
<div
style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:11pt">"As
active stakeholders in the
ICANN multistakeholder
community, we want to
participate in the policy
changes which will see
ICANN come into compliance
with data protection law
after a 19-year record of
sweeping it under the rug.
However, if we are
excluded from the process,
and feel that once again
certain stakeholders with
everything to gain and
nothing to lose from the
collection of end-user
data are getting the ear
of senior management,
whilst we get the cold
shoulder, we are afraid
that we will have to take
all actions at our
disposal regarding ICANN’s
continued, 19-year streak
of non-compliance with
data protection law. As we
are sure you are aware,
the new GDPR gives
individuals the right to
sue the Data Protection
Authorities for failure to
protect end-user rights,
which </span><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:14.6667px">ultimately will impact in the DNS use and
ICANN itself."</span></span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font"
style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size" style="font-size:11pt"></span></span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font"
style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size" style="font-size:11pt">Cheers,</span></span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font"
style="font-family:Arial"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size" style="font-size:11pt">Martín</span></span><br>
</div>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Oct 14, 2017, at 1:20
PM, Ayden Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi Martin,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you very much for
reviewing the draft
letter. I appreciate you
taking the time. Could I
please ask that you edit
the Google Doc directly
and massage the final
paragraph, so that you are
happy with it? I think we
do need to be forceful and
punch back. I disagree
that we should only go
through the GAC or follow
GNSO processes to be
heard. We are, by design,
being excluded from the
conversation on this
issue, and a flaw in the
multistakeholder model has
become apparent (at least
to me). I think we should
avail ourselves of all
legal avenues through
which we can seek a
resolution to gTLD
policies so to protect
fundamental rights, such
as the right to privacy.
To box ourselves in and to
forever subject ourselves
only to a process flawed
by design would, I think,
be a mistake. Thanks
again.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best wishes, Ayden<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-proton
m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote">
<div>-------- Original
Message --------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [NCSG-PC]
[Draft] Letter to ICANN
re: BC and IPC
correspondence<br>
</div>
<div>Local Time: 14 October
2017 4:38 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: 14 October
2017 15:38<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a
href="mailto:mpsilvavalent@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mpsilvavalent@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Ayden Férdeline
<<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div>Stephanie Perrin <<a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoront<wbr>o.ca</a>>,
<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>
<<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To help this letter hit
the spot, is already
perfect, but for the last
paragraph:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1) Threatening to go
with a public official
NCSG campaign with State
agencies of Europe to hit
ICANN, to force the MS
model, is a very bad idea.
As NCSG, we should only go
to governments through the
GAC and keep using our
GNSO procedures to
complain if we are being
left out. Going berserk on
ICANN with borrowed state
power breaks the whole
model, something that is
way beyond what we need to
do in this case. It’s a
dangerous precedent. Why
Europe? What about other
jurisdictions? other
states? We can still
coordinate with the GAC,
and as non-commercial
activists we can do public
campaigns and state claims
in defense of our rights,
but it should not be an
NCSG action. We have
procedures to escalate the
problem inside the model,
let’s use them fearless.
Let’s call the ombudsman,
keep writing to the board,
fill the open mic,
massively go into working
group coordinating our
members, etc (we have
councilors!). Asking data
protection agencies to put
pressure for us, in NCSG
name, outside the process
we set for ourselves is
not ok, is a pandora box
of precedent.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2) Even if we all agree
that NCSG should ask a
governmental agency to put
it’s nose in the GNSO
process, which I am NOT
saying we do, the
paragraph hits a big brick
wall of rhetoric problems.
If you read the letter,
the letter is perfect, is
reasonable, is harsh, it
makes you blush to think
the issue is at such a
poor situation. Is backed
by other stakeholder,
opposite to you. Once you
read the threat you loose
all the communication
bridges you build before
in the letter. Anyone with
some knowledge of the GNSO
will stop thinking on the
ICANN problem of
addressing GDPR, they will
read that NCSG is
threatening, to go to EU
to force ICANN, and the
multistakeholder model. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3) The letter is
perfect, we do need a
punch in the last
paragraph that states both
our level of concern,
alert and the demand to be
heard. But we should
threaten to use either
specific tools of the
ICANN Process, or a vague
thing that allows us to
afterward choose the best
tool.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,<br>
</div>
<div>Martín<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Oct 13, 2017, at
6:55 PM, Ayden
Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Hi Martin, thank
you very much for
this feedback. I
take it on board and
hear what you are
saying. However, I
am afraid that I do
disagree. I think we
need to be forceful.
From what I
understand we have
been ignored and
sidelined for 19
years. I think it is
important we punch
back and let ICANN
know that we are
serious about being
able to input into
this conversation,
or <i>we will</i>
avail ourselves of
alternative
mechanisms. To that
end, we will need to
start thinking about
campaign tactics too
-- that is something
I have been thinking
about for next year;
what are the next
steps, when do we
launch, and what do
we need? I think the
time for diplomacy
was a year ago (or
longer), and now is
the time for action.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div>Warm wishes,
Ayden <br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-proton
m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote"
type="cite">
<div>--------
Original Message
--------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re:
[NCSG-PC] [Draft]
Letter to ICANN
re: BC and IPC
correspondence<br>
</div>
<div>Local Time: 13
October 2017 10:49
PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time: 13
October 2017 21:49<br>
</div>
<div>From: <a
href="mailto:mpsilvavalent@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mpsilvavalent@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Ayden
Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div>Stephanie
Perrin <<a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoront<wbr>o.ca</a>>, <a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>
<<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I’ve been
following the doc,
it looks great. I
would be much more
mellow and
diplomatic in the
las paragraph, not
threaten things,
like going public
with a campaign
with data
protection
agencies. I think
we shouldn’t
promote agencies
as policeman of
ICANN, I
understand we are
waiving that in
the event the
multi-stakeholder
model fails to
include as as
stakeholder, yet,
I wouldn’t set
that as precedent
and I do not
recommend to make
it before the
actual exclusion
of the process
happen, much less
by by written
official letter. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do believe
that we have to
talk about
alternative
strategies, but
not in a letter
like this, is a
very big threat
with deep
implication, I
wouldn’t recommend
to go with that
nor sign it as
official NCSG
position.
Reminder: ONLY
ABOUT THE LAST
PARAGRAPH, the
rest looks amazing
and I still think
we should make
clear the point we
must be taken in
account. Just take
away the threat. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,<br>
</div>
<div>Martín<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>On Oct 13,
2017, at 6:42
PM, Ayden
Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Thanks
Stephanie, I
tend to agree.
I have
attached a
copy of the
letter which
includes the
Chair's name.<br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div>Ayden <br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-proton
m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote"
type="cite">
<div>--------
Original
Message
--------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject:
Re: [NCSG-PC]
[Draft] Letter
to ICANN re:
BC and IPC
correspondence<br>
</div>
<div>Local
Time: 13
October 2017
10:33 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time:
13 October
2017 21:33<br>
</div>
<div>From:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.ut<wbr>oronto.ca</a><br>
</div>
<div>To: Ayden
Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc<wbr>@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<p><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493font">It should be
signed by the
Chair on
behalf of, in
my view.</span></span><br>
</p>
<p><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493font">cheers Steph</span></span><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-cite-prefix">On
2017-10-13
17:27, Ayden
Férdeline
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>Hi all,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have
done some
final
polishing to
the letter,
and have
attached a
proposed final
draft. I hope
we may be able
to reach
agreement soon
on sending
this letter.
Also - I was
wondering,
should it
carry a name,
perhaps of the
Chair, or is
it okay to be
signed 'NCSG'?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div>Many
thanks,
Ayden <br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-proton
m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote">
<div>--------
Original
Message
--------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject:
Re: [NCSG-PC]
[Draft] Letter
to ICANN re:
BC and IPC
correspondence<br>
</div>
<div>Local
Time: 13
October 2017
7:59 PM<br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time:
13 October
2017 18:59<br>
</div>
<div>From:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a><br>
</div>
<div>To:
Stephanie
Perrin<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca></a>,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.nc<wbr>sg.is</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think
it is the
perfect tone
for this
letter. As we
saw in Hong
Kong this
month,
our public
silence is
being
manipulated
and used to
make the false
claim that we
are being
consulted with
and are an
integral part
of ICANN's
efforts to
comply with
the GDPR, when
we are
not. Thanks
for these
edits
Stephanie. We
need to
reshape the
narrative and
get it all
documented. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Ayden
Férdeline<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>Sent from
ProtonMail
Mobile<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Fri,
Oct 13, 2017
at 7:14 pm,
Stephanie
Perrin <<a
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoront<wbr>o.ca</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote"
type="cite">
<p><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:"Lucida
Grande"">I
jumped in
today
(apologies for
being
anonymous,
always forget
my google
password) and
made quite a
few changes.
I like the
idea, but I
think we
should be a
bit more
specific. In
terms of
informing the
DPAs....Swineheart is trying to get people to the IWGDPT meeting in
Paris, I think
everyone has
been briefed
at the data
commissioners
meeting in
Hong kong
(remember a
whole crew
from ICANN
went) that
there is a
draft
statement
coming. So
they know we
have been
briefing them
for two years,
we need to
sharpen that a
bit.</span></span><br>
</p>
<p><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:"Lucida
Grande"">Let
me know if you
think it was a
bit too
strong. I
will confess,
I am losing my
patience with
this lot.
They spend
gobs of money
gadding around
trying to
nullify end
user rights.
Totally ignore
us. Ought to
be ashamed of
themselves.</span></span><br>
</p>
<p><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493size"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:"Lucida
Grande"">Stephanie</span></span><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-cite-prefix">On
2017-10-13
07:05, Rafik
Dammak wrote:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
class="gmail_extra">hi,<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">reminder
for everyone
to review the
letter and
share
comments.<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">Best,<br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div>Rafik<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<div>2017-10-11
4:28 GMT+09:00
Ayden
Férdeline<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a><wbr>></span>:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div>Also - I
have now
revised this
letter again
taking into
account the
helpful
feedback that
was received
over the past
48 hours;
moving
forward,
please feel
free to edit
the document
directly if
you have any
changes you'd
like to see
made. Thanks!<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493HOEnZb"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059colour"
style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"></span></span><br>
</div>
<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493HOEnZb"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059colour" style="color:rgb(136,136,136)">
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-user">
<div>Ayden <br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-protonm_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</span></span>
<blockquote
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_quote"
type="cite"><span>
<div>--------
Original
Message
--------<br>
</div>
<div>Subject:
Re: [NCSG-PC]
[Draft] Letter
to ICANN re:
BC and IPC
correspondence<br>
</div>
</span>
<div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493h5">
<div>Local
Time: 10
October 2017
7:44 PM<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time:
10 October
2017 18:44<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>From:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>To: Rafik
Dammak <<a
href="mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rafik.dammak@gmail.com</a>><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>ncsg-pc
<<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi Rafik,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Thank you
very much for
your comments.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would
be great if we
could finalise
this letter by
Friday and
perhaps even
send it out
that day. I
very much
welcome edits
directly to
the Google
Doc; everyone
on this list,
please help
write it and
shape its
contents!<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would
also like to
propose that
we write a
monthly letter
to ICANN on
this topic
until May
2018, when
enforcement of
the GDPR comes
into effect.
That way we
can document
for the data
protection
authorities
that we have
been informing
ICANN in
excess of six
months of
their need to
comply with
this
regulation.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The
feedback from
Nick Shorey on
the PC call
today - that
we need to
help engineer
a conversation
between the
DPAs and their
GAC
representatives
- is an
interesting
one, and one
which seemed
to have
support in the
chat. How
would we go
about this,
however? Do we
write to the
GAC? Do we
express this
desire to them
in Abu Dhabi
during our
face-to-face
with them?<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Best
wishes,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ayden <span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block">
<div
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-protonm_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite"
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_quote">
<div>--------
Original
Message
--------<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>Subject:
Re: [NCSG-PC]
[Draft] Letter
to ICANN re:
BC and IPC
correspondence<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>Local
Time: 10
October 2017
5:33 AM<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>UTC Time:
10 October
2017 04:33<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>From:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rafik.dammak@gmail.com</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>To: Ayden
Férdeline <<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>ncsg-pc
<<a
href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div
class="gmail_extra">Hi
Ayden,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">Thanks
for the draft,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">it
is important
we make a
point to voice
our concerns
and influence
the process.
as we
discussed
before here
and on the
last call we
got 2 problems
1- our
representatives
in taskforce
not being
informed 2-
the last Data
protection
conference
(that is
already
passed)<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">for
the current
letter, indeed
we should
tweak the
language there
;) while we
keep the
substance.
reading IPC
letter, it
seems they
reject the use
case matrix
and I
understood
from previous
comments you
think that
doesn't include
our
perspective. I
add few
comments but I
think we can
add more, in
particular,
our concerns
in general
regarding the
process and
not just
responding to
BC and IPC
requests.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">I
ask other PC
members to
review the
letter and
share their
thoughts. I
put the GDPR
as a
discussion
item for today
call. We need
a deadline to
get this done
and prior to
Abud Dhabi
meeting if we
may want to
continue the
discussion
there and
depending on
how things go
with the
cross-community
session. I
propose that
we reach a new
version by
this Friday.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">Best,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">Rafik <span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<div>2017-10-08
23:07
GMT+09:00
Ayden
Férdeline<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a><wbr>></span>:<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div>Hi,<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have
drafted a
letter to
ICANN in
response to
the recent
correspondence
received from
the BC and the
IPC.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/13ujYOpJFL0eNvjQCiNmsduFFbiUPQC5Wmbe9wHC2K6Q/edit?usp=sharing"
title="You can
read/edit it
here."
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">You can read/edit it here.</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span>I
know the
language is
provocative
(intentionally
so), but this
is a first
draft -- and
if you
disapprove
please provide
alternative
language.<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,
Ayden<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>______________________________<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"><wbr> </span>_________________<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div>NCSG-PC
mailing list<span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
NCSG-PC mailing list
<a class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a>
<a class="m_-3486001290855872059m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br>
</div>
<div><span><Proposed
Letter - Chair
Name.pdf></span><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:12px">_____________________<wbr>__________________________</span></span><br>
</div>
<div><span
class="m_-3486001290855872059font"
style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="m_-3486001290855872059size"
style="font-size:12px">NCSG-PC
mailing list</span></span><br>
</div>
<div><a
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a><br>
</div>
<div><a
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
</div>
<div>NCSG-PC mailing list<br>
</div>
<div><a href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
NCSG-PC mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Matthew Shears
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:matthew@intpolicy.com">matthew@intpolicy.com</a>
+447712472987
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="Skype:mshears">Skype:mshears</a></pre>
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