<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Dear Ayden,<br><br></div>I share your concerns the important to me is we having a road map moving on from this letter, at least that will show a commitment on our side that we really serious about it.<br><br></div>So my strong  emphasis is  on us getting a road map as soon as possible working with our allies.<br><br></div>Kind Regards<br><br></div>Poncelet<br><div><div><br><div><br></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 15 October 2017 at 16:33, Ayden Férdeline <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi Rafik,<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for your comments.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I think we need to be explicit with what we are asking, clear that our words are not an empty threat, and definitive that consequences will follow if ICANN does not meet its obligations under the GDPR.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I am happy for us to send the attached letter with Martin's revisions, though I think it does now sound like an empty threat. The ambiguity sounds to me like we do not know what our course of action will be, when that is incorrect. In the previous draft we were very clear: if ICANN does not comply with European data protection law, we will evail ourselves next May of the Data Protection Commissioners and if necessary, see you in Court. But we have spent a week trying to get comments on this letter and speaking only for myself, my motivation is now fading. We have other comments to write; so if there is consensus on this letter as attached, we might as well send it. If we do not, let's not.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I have tried multiple times over the past two weeks to have a conversation around next steps. I have tried on the policy call, on this list, on Skype channels to talk campaigns. We all have our own interests at ICANN and follow different topics; I get that. This is something I am following so I have more time for it. And it is for that reason that I say, we are not going to get allies like AccessNow or EDRi if we ourselves cannot take the time to discuss a path forward. And I feel very strongly that if we reach out to others, we should not be asking for much more than a signature on a letter. It needs to be a part of a campaign that we are leading. We cannot expect them to take the lead here. We are in the ICANN working groups, being ignored and observing ICANN's non-compliance, and our civil society members have their own priorities which I am sure they have already budgeted for for FY18. So this is on us. I think a face-to-face meeting in Abu Dhabi - separate from our policy committee meeting if possible - is essential if we decide to take this campaign forward, and I think we should.<br></div><div><br></div><div>But we might decide that we will not launch a campaign next year, because we are not committed to this issue. I kind of get that feeling.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br></font></span></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Ayden<br></div><div><br></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002protonmail_signature_block"><div class="m_2857757750102671002protonmail_signature_block-user"><div><br></div></div></div></font></span><blockquote type="cite" class="m_2857757750102671002protonmail_quote"><span class=""><div>-------- Original Message --------<br></div><div>Subject: Re: [NCSG-PC] [Draft] Letter to ICANN re: BC and IPC correspondence<br></div></span><div><div class="h5"><div>Local Time: 15 October 2017 3:11 AM<br></div><div>UTC Time: 15 October 2017 02:11<br></div><div>From: <a href="mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com" target="_blank">rafik.dammak@gmail.com</a><br></div><div>To: Stephanie Perrin <<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca</a>><br></div><div>Martin Pablo Silva Valent <<a href="mailto:mpsilvavalent@gmail.com" target="_blank">mpsilvavalent@gmail.com</a>>, Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a> <<a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br></div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">Hi all,<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">thanks for those participating in the editing. <br></div><div class="gmail_extra">I understand the concerns about using a threat language. I am wondering how much we should be strategical here.  We should escalate gradually (and assertively) depending on the situation, but putting nuclear option, in the beginning, may not work. There is a sense of emergency here and we have to act quickly.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">I believe we should have a discussion about the strategy we should follow and if we want to go into the campaign path, getting media attention and so we would need to have a clear plan, get allies and experienced folks to support us.  As I shared in RDS channel, there was some effort during Privacy/Proxy service public comments and we can learn from that.  I brought that experience because it let many outsiders be aware of the situation and send their comments. I understand that is a different context but we can start by leveraging our membership: EDRi,  EFF, Accessnow and many others, I volunteer with others to reach them.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div>I think we can shape a letter expressing strongly our concerns and so we must continue the discussion in Abud Dhabi for next steps ( we will need to allocate time for that on formal and informal meetings) to outline a plan to follow.<br></div><div><br></div><div>let's finalize this letter, it is timing will be just 2 weeks prior to Abu Dhabi meeting.<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Best,<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Rafik<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>2017-10-15 5:21 GMT+09:00 Stephanie Perrin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca</a>></span>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p><span style="font-size:undefinedpx" class="m_2857757750102671002size"><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:"Lucida Grande"">Very nice edit.</span></span><br></p><span class="m_2857757750102671002HOEnZb"><span class="m_2857757750102671002colour" style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"><p><span style="font-size:undefinedpx" class="m_2857757750102671002size"><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:"Lucida Grande"">Stephanie.</span></span><br></p></span></span><div><div class="m_2857757750102671002h5"><div><br></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493moz-cite-prefix">On 2017-10-14 13:39, Martin Pablo Silva
      Valent wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><span><div style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="m_2857757750102671002size" style="font-size:11pt">I won’t mess the document, so I put it here: I basically took out two phrases: the one were it says we would apply to DP authorities, and the ending were it says we would go to court.</span></span><br></div><div style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="m_2857757750102671002size" style="font-size:14.6667px"></span></span><br></div><div style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="m_2857757750102671002size" style="font-size:14.6667px">This is strong and vague enough for us to do whatever we feel necessary and we outline the hard-risk real risk of ignoring GDPR (a subtle hint if you may).</span></span><br></div><div style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="m_2857757750102671002size" style="font-size:14.6667px"></span></span><br></div><div style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;text-align:justify"><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="m_2857757750102671002size" style="font-size:11pt">"As active stakeholders in the ICANN multistakeholder community, we want to participate in the policy changes which will see ICANN come into compliance with data protection law after a 19-year record of sweeping it under the rug. However, if we are excluded from the process, and feel that once again certain stakeholders with everything to gain and nothing to lose from the collection of end-user data are getting the ear of senior management, whilst we get the cold shoulder, we are afraid that we will have to take all actions at our disposal regarding ICANN’s continued, 19-year streak of non-compliance with data protection law. As we are sure you are aware, the new GDPR gives individuals the right to sue the Data Protection Authorities for failure to protect end-user rights, which </span><span class="m_2857757750102671002size" style="font-size:14.6667px">ultimately will impact in the DNS use and ICANN itself."</span></span><br></div><div><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="m_2857757750102671002size" style="font-size:11pt"></span></span><br></div><div><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="m_2857757750102671002size" style="font-size:11pt">Cheers,</span></span><br></div><div><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:Arial"><span class="m_2857757750102671002size" style="font-size:11pt">Martín</span></span><br></div></span></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Oct 14, 2017, at 1:20 PM, Ayden Férdeline
            <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>Hi Martin,<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thank you very much for reviewing the draft letter. I
              appreciate you taking the time. Could I please ask that
              you edit the Google Doc directly and massage the final
              paragraph, so that you are happy with it? I think we do
              need to be forceful and punch back. I disagree that we
              should only go through the GAC or follow GNSO processes to
              be heard. We are, by design, being excluded from the
              conversation on this issue, and a flaw in the
              multistakeholder model has become apparent (at least to
              me). I think we should avail ourselves of all legal
              avenues through which we can seek a resolution to gTLD
              policies so to protect fundamental rights, such as the
              right to privacy. To box ourselves in and to forever
              subject ourselves only to a process flawed by design
              would, I think, be a mistake. Thanks again.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes, Ayden<br></div></div><div><br></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block"><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-proton m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite" class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote"><div>-------- Original Message --------<br></div><div>Subject: Re: [NCSG-PC] [Draft] Letter to
                ICANN re: BC and IPC correspondence<br></div><div>Local Time: 14 October 2017 4:38 PM<br></div><div>UTC Time: 14 October 2017 15:38<br></div><div>From: <a href="mailto:mpsilvavalent@gmail.com" target="_blank">mpsilvavalent@gmail.com</a><br></div><div>To: Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br></div><div>Stephanie Perrin <<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoront<wbr>o.ca</a>>, <a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a> <<a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br></div><div><br></div><div>To help this letter hit the spot, is already
                perfect, but for the last paragraph:<br></div><div><br></div><div>1) Threatening to go with a public official
                NCSG campaign with State agencies of Europe to hit
                ICANN, to force the MS model, is a very bad idea. As
                NCSG, we should only go to governments through the GAC
                and keep using our GNSO procedures to complain if we are
                being left out. Going berserk on ICANN with borrowed
                state power breaks the whole model, something that is
                way beyond what we need to do in this case. It’s a
                dangerous precedent. Why Europe? What about other
                jurisdictions? other states? We can still coordinate
                with the GAC, and as non-commercial activists we can do
                public campaigns and state claims in defense of our
                rights, but it should not be an NCSG action. We have
                procedures to escalate the problem inside the model,
                let’s use them fearless. Let’s call the ombudsman, keep
                writing to the board, fill the open mic, massively go
                into working group coordinating our members, etc (we
                have councilors!). Asking data protection agencies to
                put pressure for us, in NCSG name, outside the process
                we set for ourselves is not ok, is a pandora box of
                precedent.<br></div><div><br></div><div>2) Even if we all agree that NCSG should ask
                a governmental agency to put it’s nose in the GNSO
                process, which I am NOT saying we do, the paragraph hits
                a big brick wall of rhetoric problems. If you read the
                letter, the letter is perfect, is reasonable, is harsh,
                it makes you blush to think the issue is at such a poor
                situation. Is backed by other stakeholder, opposite to
                you. Once you read the threat you loose all the
                communication bridges you build before in the letter.
                Anyone with some knowledge of the GNSO will stop
                thinking on the ICANN problem of addressing GDPR, they
                will read that NCSG is threatening, to go to EU to force
                ICANN, and the multistakeholder model. <br></div><div><br></div><div>3) The letter is perfect, we do need a punch
                in the last paragraph that states both our level of
                concern, alert and the demand to be heard. But we should
                threaten to use either specific tools of the ICANN
                Process, or a vague thing that allows us to afterward
                choose the best tool.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,<br></div><div>Martín<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Oct 13, 2017, at 6:55 PM, Ayden
                    Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>
                    wrote:<br></div><div><br></div><div><div>Hi Martin, thank you very much for
                      this feedback. I take it on board and hear what
                      you are saying. However, I am afraid that I do
                      disagree. I think we need to be forceful. From
                      what I understand we have been ignored and
                      sidelined for 19 years. I think it is important we
                      punch back and let ICANN know that we are serious
                      about being able to input into this conversation,
                      or <i>we will</i> avail ourselves of
                      alternative mechanisms. To that end, we will need
                      to start thinking about campaign tactics too --
                      that is something I have been thinking about for
                      next year; what are the next steps, when do we
                      launch, and what do we need? I think the time for
                      diplomacy was a year ago (or longer), and now is
                      the time for action.<br></div><div><br></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block"><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-user"><div>Warm wishes, Ayden <br></div></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-proton m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote" type="cite"><div>-------- Original Message --------<br></div><div>Subject: Re: [NCSG-PC] [Draft]
                        Letter to ICANN re: BC and IPC correspondence<br></div><div>Local Time: 13 October 2017 10:49 PM<br></div><div>UTC Time: 13 October 2017 21:49<br></div><div>From: <a href="mailto:mpsilvavalent@gmail.com" target="_blank">mpsilvavalent@gmail.com</a><br></div><div>To: Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br></div><div>Stephanie Perrin <<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoront<wbr>o.ca</a>>, <a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a> <<a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br></div><div><br></div><div>I’ve been following the doc, it
                        looks great. I would be much more mellow and
                        diplomatic in the las paragraph, not threaten
                        things, like going public with a campaign with
                        data protection agencies. I think we shouldn’t
                        promote agencies as policeman of ICANN, I
                        understand we are waiving that in the event the
                        multi-stakeholder model fails to include as as
                        stakeholder, yet, I wouldn’t set that as
                        precedent and I do not recommend to make it
                        before the actual exclusion of the process
                        happen, much less by  by written official
                        letter. <br></div><div><br></div><div>I do believe that we have to talk
                        about alternative strategies, but not in a
                        letter like this, is a very big threat with deep
                        implication, I wouldn’t recommend to go with
                        that nor sign it as official NCSG position.
                        Reminder: ONLY ABOUT THE LAST PARAGRAPH, the
                        rest looks amazing and I still think we should
                        make clear the point we must be taken in
                        account. Just take away the threat. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,<br></div><div>Martín<br></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Oct 13, 2017, at 6:42 PM,
                            Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>>
                            wrote:<br></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Thanks
                              Stephanie, I tend to agree. I have
                              attached a copy of the letter which
                              includes the Chair's name.<br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block"><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-user"><div>Ayden <br></div></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-proton m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><blockquote style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote" type="cite"><div>-------- Original Message
                                --------<br></div><div>Subject: Re: [NCSG-PC]
                                [Draft] Letter to ICANN re: BC and IPC
                                correspondence<br></div><div>Local Time: 13 October 2017
                                10:33 PM<br></div><div>UTC Time: 13 October 2017
                                21:33<br></div><div>From:<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.ut<wbr>oronto.ca</a><br></div><div>To: Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><br></div><div><a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><<a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">ncsg-pc<wbr>@lists.ncsg.is</a>><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><p><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493size"><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493font">It should
                                    be signed by the Chair on behalf of,
                                    in my view.</span></span><br></p><p><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493size"><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493font">cheers
                                    Steph</span></span><br></p><div><br></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493moz-cite-prefix">On 2017-10-13
                                17:27, Ayden Férdeline wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>Hi all,<br></div><div><br></div><div>I have done some final
                                  polishing to the letter, and have
                                  attached a proposed final draft. I
                                  hope we may be able to reach agreement
                                  soon on sending this letter. Also - I
                                  was wondering, should it carry a name,
                                  perhaps of the Chair, or is it okay to
                                  be signed 'NCSG'?<br></div><div><br></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block"><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-user"><div>Many thanks, Ayden  <br></div></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-proton m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite" class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote"><div>-------- Original
                                    Message --------<br></div><div>Subject: Re: [NCSG-PC]
                                    [Draft] Letter to ICANN re: BC and
                                    IPC correspondence<br></div><div>Local Time: 13 October
                                    2017 7:59 PM<br></div><div>UTC Time: 13 October
                                    2017 18:59<br></div><div>From:<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a><br></div><div>To: Stephanie Perrin<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" target="_blank"><stephanie.perrin@mail.<wbr>utoronto.ca></a>,<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank">ncsg-pc@lists.nc<wbr>sg.is</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think it is the
                                    perfect tone for this letter. As we
                                    saw in Hong Kong this month,
                                    our public silence is being
                                    manipulated and used to make the
                                    false claim that we are being
                                    consulted with and are an
                                    integral part of ICANN's efforts to
                                    comply with the GDPR, when we are
                                    not. Thanks for these edits
                                    Stephanie. We need to reshape the
                                    narrative and get it all
                                    documented. <br></div><div><br></div><div><div>Ayden Férdeline<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>Sent from ProtonMail
                                      Mobile<br></div></div><div><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div>On Fri, Oct 13, 2017
                                        at 7:14 pm, Stephanie Perrin
                                        <<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca" target="_blank">stephanie.perrin@mail.utoront<wbr>o.ca</a>>
                                        wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493protonmail_quote" type="cite"><p><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493size"><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:"Lucida Grande"">I jumped in
                                            today (apologies for being
                                            anonymous, always forget my
                                            google password) and made
                                            quite a few changes.  I like
                                            the idea, but I think we
                                            should be a bit more
                                            specific.  In terms of
                                            informing the
                                            DPAs....Swineheart is trying
                                            to get people to the IWGDPT
                                            meeting in Paris, I think
                                            everyone has been briefed at
                                            the data commissioners
                                            meeting in Hong kong
                                            (remember a whole crew from
                                            ICANN went) that there is a
                                            draft statement coming. So
                                            they know we have been
                                            briefing them for two years,
                                            we need to sharpen that a
                                            bit.</span></span><br></p><p><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493size"><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:"Lucida Grande"">Let me know
                                            if you think it was a bit
                                            too strong.  I will confess,
                                            I am losing my patience with
                                            this lot.  They spend gobs
                                            of money gadding around
                                            trying to nullify end user
                                            rights.  Totally ignore us. 
                                            Ought to be ashamed of
                                            themselves.</span></span><br></p><p><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493size"><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:"Lucida Grande"">Stephanie</span></span><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></p><div><br></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493moz-cite-prefix">On
                                        2017-10-13 07:05, Rafik Dammak
                                        wrote:<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">hi,<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">reminder
                                            for everyone to review the
                                            letter and share comments.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Best,<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div>Rafik<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>2017-10-11
                                                4:28 GMT+09:00 Ayden
                                                Férdeline<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a><wbr>></span>:<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex" class="gmail_quote"><div>Also - I
                                                  have now revised this
                                                  letter again taking
                                                  into account the
                                                  helpful feedback that
                                                  was received over the
                                                  past 48 hours; moving
                                                  forward, please feel
                                                  free to edit the
                                                  document directly if
                                                  you have any changes
                                                  you'd like to see
                                                  made. Thanks!<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493HOEnZb"><span class="m_2857757750102671002colour" style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"></span></span><br></div><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493HOEnZb"><span class="m_2857757750102671002colour" style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"><div><br></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block"><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-user"><div>Ayden <br></div></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-proton
m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div><br></div></span></span><blockquote class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_quote" type="cite"><span><div>--------
                                                      Original Message
                                                      --------<br></div><div>Subject:
                                                      Re: [NCSG-PC]
                                                      [Draft] Letter to
                                                      ICANN re: BC and
                                                      IPC correspondence<br></div></span><div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493h5"><div>Local
                                                        Time: 10 October
                                                        2017 7:44 PM<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>UTC
                                                        Time: 10 October
                                                        2017 18:44<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>From:<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>To:
                                                        Rafik Dammak
                                                        <<a href="mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com" target="_blank">rafik.dammak@gmail.com</a>><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>ncsg-pc
                                                        <<a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div>Hi
                                                        Rafik,<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>Thank
                                                          you very much
                                                          for your
                                                          comments.<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div>It
                                                          would be great
                                                          if we could
                                                          finalise this
                                                          letter by
                                                          Friday and
                                                          perhaps even
                                                          send it out
                                                          that day. I
                                                          very much
                                                          welcome edits
                                                          directly to
                                                          the Google
                                                          Doc; everyone
                                                          on this list,
                                                          please help
                                                          write it and
                                                          shape its
                                                          contents!<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>I
                                                        would also like
                                                        to propose that
                                                        we write a
                                                        monthly letter
                                                        to ICANN on this
                                                        topic until May
                                                        2018, when
                                                        enforcement of
                                                        the GDPR comes
                                                        into effect.
                                                        That way we can
                                                        document for the
                                                        data protection
                                                        authorities that
                                                        we have been
                                                        informing ICANN
                                                        in excess of six
                                                        months of their
                                                        need to comply
                                                        with this
                                                        regulation.<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div>The
                                                        feedback from
                                                        Nick Shorey on
                                                        the PC call
                                                        today - that we
                                                        need to help
                                                        engineer a
                                                        conversation
                                                        between the DPAs
                                                        and their GAC
                                                        representatives
                                                        - is an
                                                        interesting one,
                                                        and one which
                                                        seemed to have
                                                        support in the
                                                        chat. How would
                                                        we go about
                                                        this, however?
                                                        Do we write to
                                                        the GAC? Do we
                                                        express this
                                                        desire to them
                                                        in Abu Dhabi
                                                        during our
                                                        face-to-face
                                                        with them?<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>Best
                                                          wishes,<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div>Ayden <span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div></div><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block"><div class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-proton
m_2124695277728767332protonmail_signature_block-empty"><br></div></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite" class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493m_2124695277728767332protonmail_quote"><div>--------
                                                          Original
                                                          Message
                                                          --------<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>Subject:
                                                          Re: [NCSG-PC]
                                                          [Draft] Letter
                                                          to ICANN re:
                                                          BC and IPC
                                                          correspondence<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>Local
                                                          Time: 10
                                                          October 2017
                                                          5:33 AM<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>UTC
                                                          Time: 10
                                                          October 2017
                                                          04:33<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>From:<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rafik.dammak@gmail.com" target="_blank">rafik.dammak@gmail.com</a><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>To:
                                                          Ayden
                                                          Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a>><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>ncsg-pc
                                                          <<a href="mailto:ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">ncsg-pc@lists.ncsg.is</a>><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">Hi
                                                          Ayden,<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Thanks
                                                          for the draft,<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">it
                                                          is important
                                                          we make a
                                                          point to voice
                                                          our concerns
                                                          and influence
                                                          the process.
                                                          as we
                                                          discussed
                                                          before here
                                                          and on the
                                                          last call we
                                                          got 2 problems
                                                          1- our
                                                          representatives
                                                          in taskforce
                                                          not being
                                                          informed 2-
                                                          the last Data
                                                          protection
                                                          conference
                                                          (that is
                                                          already
                                                          passed)<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">for
                                                          the current
                                                          letter, indeed
                                                          we should
                                                          tweak the
                                                          language there
                                                          ;) while we
                                                          keep the
                                                          substance.
                                                          reading IPC
                                                          letter, it
                                                          seems they
                                                          reject the use
                                                          case matrix
                                                          and I
                                                          understood
                                                          from previous
                                                          comments you
                                                          think that
                                                          doesn't include
                                                          our
                                                          perspective. I
                                                          add few
                                                          comments but I
                                                          think we can
                                                          add more, in
                                                          particular,
                                                          our concerns
                                                          in general
                                                          regarding the
                                                          process and
                                                          not just
                                                          responding to
                                                          BC and IPC
                                                          requests.<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">I
                                                          ask other PC
                                                          members to
                                                          review the
                                                          letter and
                                                          share their
                                                          thoughts. I
                                                          put the GDPR
                                                          as a
                                                          discussion
                                                          item for today
                                                          call. We need
                                                          a deadline to
                                                          get this done
                                                          and prior to
                                                          Abud Dhabi
                                                          meeting if we
                                                          may want to
                                                          continue the
                                                          discussion
                                                          there and
                                                          depending on
                                                          how things go
                                                          with the
                                                          cross-community
                                                          session. I
                                                          propose that
                                                          we reach a new
                                                          version by
                                                          this Friday.<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Best,<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Rafik <span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div>2017-10-08
                                                          23:07
                                                          GMT+09:00
                                                          Ayden
                                                          Férdeline<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank">icann@ferdeline.com</a><wbr>></span>:<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex" class="gmail_quote"><div>Hi,<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div>I
                                                          have drafted a
                                                          letter to
                                                          ICANN in
                                                          response to
                                                          the recent
                                                          correspondence
                                                          received from
                                                          the BC and the
                                                          IPC.<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/13ujYOpJFL0eNvjQCiNmsduFFbiUPQC5Wmbe9wHC2K6Q/edit?usp=sharing" title="You can
                                                          read/edit it
                                                          here." rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You can read/edit it here.</a><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span>I
                                                          know the
                                                          language is
                                                          provocative
                                                          (intentionally
                                                          so), but this
                                                          is a first
                                                          draft -- and
                                                          if you
                                                          disapprove
                                                          please provide
                                                          alternative
                                                          language.<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div>Best,
                                                          Ayden<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div><div>______________________________<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"><wbr> </span>_________________<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div>NCSG-PC
                                                          mailing list<span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><a href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><a href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a><span class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
NCSG-PC mailing list
<a class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a>
<a class="m_2857757750102671002m_-781158460057476493moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc" target="_blank">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a>


<br></pre></blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div></blockquote></blockquote><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br></div><div><span><Proposed
                                Letter - Chair Name.pdf></span><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="m_2857757750102671002size" style="font-size:12px">_____________________<wbr>__________________________</span></span><br></div><div><span class="m_2857757750102671002font" style="font-family:Helvetica"><span class="m_2857757750102671002size" style="font-size:12px">NCSG-PC
                                  mailing list</span></span><br></div><div><a style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a><br></div><div><a style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc" target="_blank">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div></div><div><br></div><div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br></div><div>NCSG-PC mailing list<br></div><div><a href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is" target="_blank">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a><br></div><div><a href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
NCSG-PC mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is">NCSG-PC@lists.ncsg.is</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/listinfo/ncsg-pc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ncsg.is/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/ncsg-pc</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Poncelet O. Ileleji MBCS<br>Coordinator<br>The Gambia YMCAs Computer Training Centre & Digital Studio<br>MDI Road Kanifing South<br>P. O. Box 421 Banjul<br>The Gambia, West Africa<br>Tel: (220) 4370240<br>Fax:(220) 4390793<br>Cell:(220) 9912508<br>Skype: pons_utd<br><i><span style="color:rgb(0,0,153)"><a href="http://www.ymca.gm" target="_blank">www.ymca.gm</a><br><a href="http://jokkolabs.net/en/" target="_blank">http://jokkolabs.net/en/</a><br><a href="http://www.waigf.org" target="_blank">www.waigf.org</a><br><a href="http://www.itag.gm" target="_blank">www,insistglobal.com</a><br><a href="http://www.npoc.org" target="_blank">www.npoc.org</a><br><a href="http://www.wsa-mobile.org/node/753" target="_blank">http://www.wsa-mobile.org/node/753</a><br></span></i><cite><span style="color:rgb(0,0,153)"><a href="http://www.diplointernetgovernance.org" target="_blank">www.diplointernetgovernance.org</a><br><br></span><b><span style="color:rgb(0,0,153)"><br></span></b><br></cite><br></div></div></div></div></div>
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