<div dir="auto">No it isn’t Kathy. I am talking about the concept of small team plus! It was also it was also misrepresented to the GAC and it opens a can of worms. But that ship has sailed which is very unfortunate since I raised and the NCSG council members agreed in DC that small groups can be abused. The fun part of this is that people who came up with this idea frame it as “oh you wanted transparency so we made the small team bigger!”. Unfortunate really but I can’t do anything about it and I am not convinced by your explanation, but I just see that we keep backing off from the things we discuss and want! </div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 5, 2023 at 9:57 PM Kathy Kleiman <kathy@dnrc.tech> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><u></u>
<div>
<p>Hi Farzi, <br>
</p>
<p>What Anne and Tomslin, Stephanie and others have been working on
is a revision to SubPro Working Group Recommendation 17.2 that the
Board will accept. As we discussed in the Issues Forum, SubPro WG
Recommendation 17.2 called for a fuller range of support for those
New gTLD Applicants qualifying for Applicant Support, including
technical, legal and business support. The ICANN Board (read:
ICANN Legal) had fiduciary concerns (e.g., paying directly for
someone else's lawyer) and the "what if" far more Applicants need
Support than ICANN budgeted for. <br>
</p>
<p>But 17.2 is a critical policy recommendation, duly created by a
PDP WG and adopted by the Council. Tomslin, Stephanie, and some in
ALAC (as we shared very openly at the Issues Forum) have been
worked to clarify, define and show (a) how very, very important
these extra services, counseling and support will be for legal,
business and technical issues, and (b) how by careful planning and
using strategies we all now well (like Incubators and
Non-Profits), service providers/experts can scale a class, say on
"creating a sustainable business plan for a gTLD" from 10 to 100
people/organizations (beauty of a Zoom room).</p>
<p>It's not new policy; it's modification to preserve a
recommendation that impacts those groups most in need of support.
Since we cannot reconstitute the SubPro Working Group (finished in
2020), it is up to the Council to make these, yes, policy tweaks.
This Council SubPro Small Team, in turn, makes the policy
recommendation revision text - and yes, the full Council should
review and approve it (or dismiss it). <br>
</p>
<p>While I share your concerns overall about the power of Council
Small Teams, I think the use here is within bounds and works to do
something appropriate that has no other avenue. Best, Kathy<br>
</p></div><div>
<div>On 10/24/2023 5:25 AM, farzaneh badii
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">Dear NCSG and Councillors</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">We cannot allow this small team plus go ahead. It
is becoming a policy development group of its own. Councillors,
please follow up on this. </div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message
---------<br>
From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">DiBiase,
Gregory via council</strong> <span dir="auto"><<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank">council@gnso.icann.org</a>></span><br>
Date: Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 5:19 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [council] [GNSO-SubProPendingRecs-ST] Point of
Order - Sub Pro Pending Recommendations Small Team Work<br>
To: Paul McGrady <<a href="mailto:paul@elstermcgrady.com" target="_blank">paul@elstermcgrady.com</a>>,
Tomslin Samme-Nlar <<a href="mailto:mesumbeslin@gmail.com" target="_blank">mesumbeslin@gmail.com</a>>,
Anne ICANN <<a href="mailto:anneicanngnso@gmail.com" target="_blank">anneicanngnso@gmail.com</a>>,
<a href="mailto:COUNCIL@GNSO.ICANN.ORG" target="_blank">COUNCIL@GNSO.ICANN.ORG</a>
<<a href="mailto:COUNCIL@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank">COUNCIL@gnso.icann.org</a>><br>
CC: <a href="mailto:gnso-subpropendingrecs-st@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-subpropendingrecs-st@icann.org</a>
<<a href="mailto:gnso-subpropendingrecs-st@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-subpropendingrecs-st@icann.org</a>>,
Terri Agnew via cou. <<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank">council@gnso.icann.org</a>><br>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi All,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I understand the concern about
stating definitively that Applicant Support would
constitute mere "Implementation Guidance" rather than
actual policy. But I’m not sure that’s the case. My
understanding was that outputs from the Small Team Plus
that are sent to Council for consideration would likely
consist of both a Supplemental Recommendation and
Implementation Guidance. Is that accurate Paul?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anne and Tomslin- do you have any
concerns with telling the Board that both a Supplemental
Recommendation and Implementation Guidance is something
the small team is considering and ultimately will bring
to the broader council for their approval?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Greg</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
GNSO-SubProPendingRecs-ST <<a href="mailto:gnso-subpropendingrecs-st-bounces@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-subpropendingrecs-st-bounces@icann.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul McGrady<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 24, 2023 1:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tomslin Samme-Nlar <<a href="mailto:mesumbeslin@gmail.com" target="_blank">mesumbeslin@gmail.com</a>>;
Anne ICANN <<a href="mailto:anneicanngnso@gmail.com" target="_blank">anneicanngnso@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-subpropendingrecs-st@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-subpropendingrecs-st@icann.org</a>;
Terri Agnew via cou. <<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank">council@gnso.icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [EXTERNAL]
[GNSO-SubProPendingRecs-ST] [council] Point of Order
- Sub Pro Pending Recommendations Small Team Work</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<table style="border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:15.25pt">
<td style="width:842.35pt;border:1.5pt solid rgb(237,125,49);padding:0in 5.4pt;height:15.25pt" width="1123" valign="top">
<p><strong><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background:repeat rgb(255,255,153);color:black">CAUTION</span></strong><span style="background:repeat rgb(255,255,153);color:black">: This email
originated from outside of the organization.
Do not click links or open attachments unless
you can confirm the sender and know the
content is safe.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Anne and Tomslin,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you both for this. If the
goal is to <b><u>only</u></b> make a Supplemental
Recommendation, that relegates us to
<b><u>only</u></b> a Policy position and <b><u>no
position on implementation</u></b>. This is
inconsistent with how the GNSO has been acting for
many years. Saying that we will have (1) a policy
Supplemental Recommendation
<b><u>AND</u></b> (2) implementation guidance is
nothing radical at all. Based on Anne’s email, I
think we should take a few minutes to level set in our
next call so that everyone can be reminded about the
difference between policy recommendations and
implementation guidance. But I don’t think we need to
take some decision before speaking with the Board on
whether or not Council has the ability to issue both
policy Supplemental Recommendations
<b><u>and</u></b> Implementation Guidance. The
Council clearly does.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Paul</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> council <<a href="mailto:council-bounces@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank">council-bounces@gnso.icann.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tomslin Samme-Nlar via
council<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 23, 2023 8:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anne ICANN <<a href="mailto:anneicanngnso@gmail.com" target="_blank">anneicanngnso@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:gnso-subpropendingrecs-st@icann.org" target="_blank">gnso-subpropendingrecs-st@icann.org</a>;
Terri Agnew via cou. <<a href="mailto:council@gnso.icann.org" target="_blank">council@gnso.icann.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [council]
[GNSO-SubProPendingRecs-ST] Point of Order - Sub
Pro Pending Recommendations Small Team Work</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all, </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you, Anne for
pointing this out. I too do not recall any
agreement as to the approach to tackle the
Applicant Support ideas, other than that the
'idea' was floated on Sunday as an option.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think there is also
agreement that all proposals/recommendations
from the Small Team must be approved by the
council before they become official council
positions. In fact, during our meeting on
Sunday, it was stressed that this be strictly
adhered to, especially now that non-council
members are being invites to form 'Small Team
Plus".</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I
therefore support Anne's request that we avoid
socialising this idea of using implementation
guidance and truncating Recommendation 17.2 as
the way forward to address Board's concerns on
Applicant support until the council approves it.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Warmly, <br>
Tomslin</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, 23 Oct 2023, 22:43
Anne ICANN, <<a href="mailto:anneicanngnso@gmail.com" target="_blank">anneicanngnso@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Sub Pro Small
Team,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Today I heard our Sub
Pro Small Team fearless leader Paul
announce to the GAC that the ideas around
Applicant Support that will be developed
by the "Small Team Plus" will constitute
"Implementation Guidance" for the Board.
Of course in Sub Pro "speak",
Implementation Guidance is a term of art
that means the ideas will not constitute a
policy recommendation as contemplated by
Annex A, Section 9 which speaks of
Supplemental Recommendations which are
policy recommendations. I commented on
this in our Small Team meeting on
Saturday. (For clarity, "implementation
Guidance" is a defined term in the Sub Pro
Final Report and it is not obligatory if
the Board finds that it is impractical.)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Although Paul began to
speak about Implementation Guidance in the
small team meeting on Saturday, I don't
recall a consensus being developed on this
approach. Perhaps more importantly, it
strikes me that the decision as to whether
the ideas to be put forward in the
Supplemental Recommendation for Applicant
Support will constitute Implementation
Guidance (and not policy per se) is
actually a question for Council and not
for the Small Team alone to decide as this
is in fact a policy matter.
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Perhaps Paul (and
staff?) are thinking this is the only
workable approach because of the many
ideas that have been put forward. The
thought may be that no one idea (or
merging of ideas into one consensus
Supplemental Recommendation) will be
feasible. Or that this process would take
too long, if achievable at all? These are
all very real concerns.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">However, I do need to
raise this Point of Order before the
meeting with the Board where the Board
Statement on Sub Pro Non-Adoption will be
reviewed. I believe that in respecting
the boundaries of Small Team work, we
would need authorization from Council to
state to the Board that suggestions for
providing expanded assistance in the realm
of Applicant Support would constitute mere
"Implementation Guidance" rather than
actual policy Recommendations which are
Supplemental in nature pursuant to Annex
A, Section 9.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Of course it would be
easier for the Board to accept a truncated
Recommendation 17.2 which is not specific
other than to say "expand Applicant
Support". Then we could tack on various
Implementation Guidance ideas which do not
actually bind the Board. However, again I
believe that if that is to be the approach
taken by the Small Team, it should be
approved in advance by Council.)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As incoming Chair, Greg
has already indicated in his presentation
to Council his concern in relation to
transparency of Council small team work.
So let's be very careful about this one as
we are due to go before the Board to
discuss the non-adopted items in the
pending Sub Pro Final Report
Recommendations. Could we please discuss
this further in our Closed Session? I do
not think the same statement made today to
the GAC should be repeated before the
Board without authorization from Council.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anne</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anne
Aikman-Scalese</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">GNSO Councilor </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">NomCom
Non-Voting 2022-2024</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:anneicanngnso@gmail.com" target="_blank">anneicanngnso@gmail.com</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<pre cols="72" style="font-family:monospace">--
Kathy Kleiman
President, Domain Name Rights Coalition
</pre>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div>