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<p>Thanks again Manju, for your untiring efforts to get us to solve
this disagreement about next steps. I am going to try to
summarize my thinking on this, without diving into the complexity
of the law and the difficulties inherent in implementing it.</p>
<p>1. The push to distinguish between legal and natural is not
new. We fought it in the PPSAI, and won. In phase 1 EPDP, we
managed to get recommendation #6 through, but with the concession
that ICANN would do a study on legal natural, and that we would
reexamine. My position is basically HOLD THAT LINE! We do not
need to change our position, we can examine the matter, take a
look at what guidance would do, and maintain the status quo.</p>
<p>2. We have sought advice from Bird and Bird on mitigating the
risk to contracted parties in terms of how they provide
information to their registrants, in order to be in full
compliance with data protection law (viewed through the GDPR
lens). For the contracted parties, nothing in there eliminates
the risk that the data controller has, but certainly guidance
mitigates it. However, remember that civil society can take a
case under GDPR, and if I were advising civil society as to how to
take a case, I would point out the history of WHOIS, the dogged
determination of ICANN and the IP and business community to get
back to the good old WHOIS, the lack of evidence that forcing this
determination on smaller actors will indeed result in greater
security and stability of the DNS, and the unequal power
relationship between ICANN the regulator and the contracted
parties who must be accredited to do business. Third party data
accessors are driving this process, and registrants are basicly
being represented by ourselves, and the Registrars who have them
as customers. I think we have a responsibility not to cave in.</p>
<p>3. A word on small business, sole proprietors, and home based
entrepreneurs or gig workers. We are the Non-commercial
stakeholders, so we do not claim to represent them. Frankly, I
don't know who does here at ICANN, in my 8 years of volunteering
at ICANN I have never heard the ALAC folks advance a cohesive
argument on behalf of these folks (or even an argument, but I
hesitate to say that because someone will trawl through the
archives and come up with someone defending the little guy against
giant corporations). Certainly they are not speaking for them at
the EPDP, they are speaking for government, law enforcement, and
cybersecurity operatives. As folks who care about human rights
and fairness to developing economies, I think we should care about
how much this differentiation between legal persons and natural
persons does not work in countries other than the EU states and
the US. Countries around the world have different ways to
describe small business, different ways to regulate it, and this
differentiation may not match tax schemes, municipal registration
patterns, etc. There is of course an additional barrier in the
matter of languages.<br>
</p>
<p>4. Remember that what we are arguing about is not providing
access to data about suspected legal persons through the SSAD. We
are arguing about Automatic disclosure based on the choice the
individual makes, legal or natural person. As I have said before,
the skies are not going to fall if the legitimate requestors have
to request the data and get it in one or two business days, as
opposed to having it pre-emptively disclosed. Remember that the
registrar or his reseller has a wealth of other day about their
customer that is "below the surface", most importantly credit card
info, billing address for the credit card, emails, IP address
etc. They can look at that data if necessary, to figure out
whether they are dealing with a company or a person. However, the
SSAD does not have access to that data. If we encourage this
differentiation by putting guidance into the policy, then we are
heading for the slippery slope of automated disclosure. Remember
that there is already a section in there that once the data has
been verified as pertaining to a legal person and not containing
personal data, it MUST be disclosed. What happens when that legal
entity moves to a jurisdiction where employees have privacy
rights, either under data protection law or other laws such as
labour laws or contracts? There is a good chance that some of
their data becomes personal.<br>
</p>
<p>5. Registrars already have excellent advice for their members
available through their own websites. Remember that at ICANN we
are only dealing with the big ones, and the responsible ones. We
have to consider whether any activity we sanction in this policy
induces the lazy ones to cut corners. They are used to disclosing
everything in the WHOIS, if given an opportunity to revert to that
by creating this distinction, they will most likely do what is
easiest. At the moment, under the temp spec and article 6, the
easiest thing to do is to consider these grey area folks as
natural persons unless proven otherwise, and protect the data.
Why on earth would we not choose this option? There is no law
telling us to do otherwise, and there is certainly a great deal of
law out there that makes differentiation a legal risk that carries
liability and cost. We want domain names to remain affordable,
and we want our people protected.</p>
<p>6. One more thing: remember that not all domain names are used
for websites engaged in commerce. Some are being held by
individuals for future use. Disclosure provides market
information to big players who may want to prevent the name from
being used, or to purchase them, but there is no harm emanating
from them in dormancy, and small players need not have their
competitive positions compromised in this way. Most of the online
crime that we hear adduced to justify disclosure of data is coming
from websites. Websites can be regulated to protect consumers,
but that is not within ICANN's bailiwick. Folks come to ICANN to
demand this activity because other multilateral instruments have
failed, but given the lack of oversight over ICANN, the
responsibility to ensure fairness and human rights are respected
falls on the shoulders of the stakeholders engaged here. <br>
</p>
<p>7. Finally: Several folks are worried that governments will
regulate if we do not concede here. I say let them, the Courts
and the Constitution and the much more rigorous defences against
incursions into human rights available within countries will
prevail. It certainly will in the EU, where the draft NIS is
progressing.....I keep pointing out the Opinion of the European
Data Protection Supervisor on this matter, so one more time here
it is
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=edps+on+the+nis+directive">https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=edps+on+the+nis+directive</a>.
As for the increasing number of autocratic countries interested in
curtailing the free speech and internet rights of their citizens,
they are regulating anyway and nothing that ICANN does is going to
persuade them otherwise. A good example of us falling on the side
of customer protection might at least give those individuals in
these countries something to point to, as opposed to caving in to
threats.<br>
</p>
<p>cheers Stephanie Perrin<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-04-27 11:56 p.m., 陳曼茹 Manju
Chen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAMeQZi0H1LMBLMz5xkFikR4QG0DQO3snXb+LSzEPCU0KFBTTGw@mail.gmail.com">
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: sans-serif; color:
white; font-style: normal; font-weight: bold; padding: .2em;">
<strong><span style="color: #c75000;">EXTERNAL EMAIL:</span></strong></div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi all,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">This
has been a very helpful discussion. Our ultimate goal is to
finalize an NCSG position, and I'd like to provide some
context in the interest of reaching that goal.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">Some
have pointed out that the question of 'do you agree to
publish your data' is a much better one than 'are you a
legal or natural person'. I totally agree. But we already
have that in the policy. In the EPDP phase 1 final report,
recommendation #6 reads: </div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">The
EPDP Team recommends that, as soon as commercially
reasonable, Registrar must </span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">provide the
opportunity for the Registered Name Holder to provide its
Consent to </span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">publish
redacted contact information, as well as the email
address, in the RDS for the </span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">sponsoring
registrar.</span></blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">In the
EPDP phase2A, the WG is tasked to address the following
questions:</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<ol>
<li>Whether any updates are required to the EPDP Phase 1
recommendation on this topic (“Registrars and Registry
Operators are permitted to differentiate between
registrations of legal and natural persons, but are not
obligated to do so“);
</li>
<li>What guidance, if any, can be provided to Registrars
and/or Registries who differentiate between
registrations of legal and natural persons. </li>
</ol>
<div>So it's not that we 'want' the distinction of
natural vs. legal. It's the task we're given, and per the
WG chair's last email to the EPDP team, it's not something
we can avoid. We have to stick to the 'natural vs. legal
persons' rhetoric to answer the questions. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Of course, we can simply assert that 'there's no update
needed' and let the contracted parties do whatever they
want when they feel like making the distinction. I was
personally very tempted by this option every now and then.
However, as Milton pointed out in another email, we are
already developing guidance in the EPDP, so that option
seems far-fetched. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope this explains some of the confusion and helps us
to consider Milton's 4 options in the other email. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best, </div>
<div>Manju</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 4:40
AM Mark Leiser <<a href="mailto:markleiser@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">markleiser@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="arial, sans-serif">Hi Milton,</font>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">First let me say I
completely agree with you on your statements about
European data privacy. I feel like I've dedicated most
of my professional life arguing about the dangers of
privacy and data protection maximalism - yet almost
always feel like my arguments on deaf ears. While
people are arguing that 'everything is personal data',
I've been arguing that this makes the regime
unmanageable. </font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">So let me try to
explain 'relating to' with reference to 'Milton
Mueller's Porkbelly Diner'. Because of Recital 14,
this would amount to a legal person. It's pretty clear
that the intention of the GDPR's drafters was to
exclude legal persons. However, let's say you have
registered 'MM Porkbelly Diner' in the register of
companies. I think you would agree that this would
amount to information about a legal person. But say
someone searched the company register and discovered
Milton Mueller was the principal shareholder of MM
Porkbelly Diner. This is an identifier which would
<i>tie nformation about Milton Mueller to</i> 'MM
PorkBelly Diner'. Therefore, this is 'any information'
'relating to' an identified or identifiable living
person. It would be reasonable to infer that MM
registered in the registrar database under MM
PorkBelly Diner is the same as the Milton Mueller that
is in the register of companies. The fact that someone
can combine the knowledge from the company register
with the knowledge from the registrar database could
make 'MM Porkbelly Diner' personal data under Article
4(1) of the GDPR. Someone who did not disclose their
identity at all could still be identifiable; hence,
the perceived need for protection in the EU data
protection regime.</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"> "I<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">am saying that the
user, the registrant, gets to decide what is
personal data or not, because THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE,
CLEAR LEGAL DEFINITION" is, on the surface,
problematic. </span><font color="#000000">It
doesn't matter whether the user says NO or YES or
the registrar says no or yes, or whether it is
objective or clear, the test is whether any
information can be combined with other information
to reveal an identifiable living person. I would
argue, absent a wholesale change in the reasoning
used by the CJEU, this would remain the case for the
foreseeable future. This is not intended as a Mark
Leiser argument or an attempt to discredit what you
are saying, but an honest account of how I think the
Courts and the EU data protection Board would react
to what you are proposing. </font><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">You asked about <a href="https://iapp.org/news/a/are-ip-addresses-generated-when-users-visit-websites-personal-information/#:~:text=Under%20the%20EU%20General%20Data,header%20information%20that%20website%20hosts" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
IP addresses</a>, 'port numbers', 'browser config',
etc could be used to identify you personally. Yes,
absolutely. This is personal data in the EU - if it
can relate to a living person. What your writing here
reveals, is that you are a little confused about how
the GDPR works - the GDPR does not rely on 'consent'
or 'explicit permission' as the only basis for
processing personal data. Remember the GDPR has six<a href="https://gdpr-info.eu/art-6-gdpr/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"> grounds of
processing</a>. It is a prohibitive regulation. You
cannot process personal data in the EU unless you
satisfy one of those six grounds. Most companies will
NOT be processing on the basis of 'consent' but on
'legitimate interests' (Article 6(1)(f)) or
performance of a contract (Article 6(1)(b)). Don't
worry, this is an extremely common mistake among
American attorneys! As most of these items are
"technical', I would also imagine that there is a
'legal requirement' (another ground) or a lawful
basis. All ISPs will be processing personal data
through 'IP addresses', 'port browsers', and 'browser
config' because of the legal basis found in <a href="https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32002L0058&from=EN" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Article 15 of
the e-Privacy Directive</a> which provides
Member States with a specific exemption for the
purposes of national security. If not covered by this,
I would imagine they would rely on 'legitimate
interests' as their ground instead. </font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">Finally, even if a
registrar has a legitimate interest in processing
someone's personal data, this does not address the
<i>privacy </i>requirements that i indicated in my
previous email. Unless there is a specific provision
put into law, I do not know how the registrar can
remain compliant with the GDPR and the EU's privacy
requirements. In fact, I don't know how the EU can
even comment on this, because, of course, the EU
Charter is a legal framework completely distinct from
the European Convention of Human Rights. </font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">One more thing to
consider - if you choose to disclose your name,
address, and designate as the contact person of a
legal person, what happens when that person exercises
their 'right to be forgotten' right under Article 17
GDPR. Maybe Milton Mueller the person chooses to leave
the legal entity MM Porkbelly Diner, adopts a vegan
lifestyle, and wants no affiliation with the business?
If it's published, he can demand a correction of the
database thereof. So what then? </font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">Regards,</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">Mark </font></div>
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<div style="font-size:12.8px"><b><font color="#674ea7"><span style="font-size:small;font-family:Tahoma">Dr Mark
Leiser |
</span><span style="font-size:small">Law
and Digital
Technologies </span><span style="font-size:small;font-family:Tahoma">| FRSA FHEA </span><span style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:small">|</span></font></b></div>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 at
20:35, Mueller, Milton L <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">milton@gatech.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Mark,
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thanks
for your intervention. Here is the complete
definition of personal data in GDPR:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:30pt;background:white;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51)">‘personal data’
means any information relating to an identified
or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’);
an identifiable natural person is one who can be
identified, directly or indirectly, in
particular by reference to an identifier such as
a name, an identification number, location data,
an online identifier or to one or more factors
specific to the physical, physiological,
genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social
identity of that natural person;</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Alas,
this raises more questions than it answers. It
is not entirely clear what “relating to” means
in this construct. E.g., if the name of my
company is Milton Mueller’s Porkbelly Diner, is
the name relating to me as a person, or to my
business? Strictly speaking it’s a business
name. But it could be used to identify me. An
overly broad interpretation of this definition
would classify ANY data about ANYTHING as
“personal data” because at some point it could
be “related to” an “identifiable natural
person.” So suddenly the business name becomes
personal data. Or a bunch of obscure technical
indicators inherent in your use of the internet,
such as port numbers, browser config, etc.,
could be “related” to your ISP account number,
and then used to identify you, personally. But
does that mean that every website and hosting
service in the world that uses that technical
data in the course of their operations cannot
process that info without your explicit
permission, because it’s “personal data?” I hope
not, because the internet would cease to
function if so.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">></span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Therefore,
<a href="mailto:info@myorg.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">info@myorg.org</a>
is personal data if someone behind it is
identifiable.<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">My
point is that whether the user of
<a href="mailto:info@myorg.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">info@myorg.org</a>
is identifiable does not depend on that
chunk of data, but on a bunch of activities
that relate that data to other things. And
in a digital world with powerful processing
capabilities, no one can fully control those
correlations and searches. Any attempt to do
so simply cripples the entire information
economy. So the idea of looking at a
registration record and saying “is there
personal data in here or not” is a
completely invalid test.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">There
is an eerie similarity between these
exaggerated applications of privacy law and
the copyright maximalists of the 1990s. The
IP interests thought you needed permission
to transmit a copyrighted work over the
internet, a claim that would have crippled
ISPs who had no idea what packets were parts
of copyrighted material or not. Privacy
maximalists have reached the same point of
absurdity, but they don’t seem to realize
it. They are no longer protecting a tangible
privacy interest of internet users, they are
trying to give individuals rigid control
over information exchanges and imposing
largely meaningless consent requirements
that do no one any good.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">></span>The
confusion comes from Recital 14 of the GDPR
which states that it only applies to natural
persons and does not cover the processing of
personal data concerning legal persons, in
particular undertakings established as legal
persons or legal entities. This also includes
the name of the legal person, the form, and
the contact details of the legal person.<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">
</span>But the second you start adding
identifiers to these details, it stops
becoming the data of a 'legal person' and
starts becoming personal data. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Yes,
indeed, the GDPR is confused on this score.
Unfortunately, you don’t escape that
confusion by saying “adding identifiers” is
the problem. Your argument fails because
names of legal persons and contact details
ARE “identifiers,” they are just identifiers
of legal persons. As I pointed out they can
easily overlap with, or be used to identify,
natural persons. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">So
my basic point is that we do not solve this
problem by reference to GDPR definitions. In
fact if GDPR is taken literally no one can
ever publish and share any kind of
information without absurd overhead and
legal bureaucracy, because ALL of it can be
used to identify you in some way. These
kinds of interpretations actually discredit
privacy laws and protections, by taking them
to counterproductive lengths. We have to
make common sense-based, practical
distinctions between what data needs
protection, what data can be easily shared
at the registrants’ choice.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Secondly, I find this
statement, "I think it is simplest to just say
to the registrant, if you’re a company and
don’t mind (or even want) your data to be
published, check this box. If you’re not, or
you do mind, don’t check it." to be BOTH
perplexing and inaccurate. Whether someone
checks the box, or does not check the box is
completely irrelevant for determining whether
it is personal data. Whether someone checks
the box is a question of CONSENT to processing
AND publication, not whether this amounts to
personal data. <span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">We
actually seem to agree here, more than you
think. I am saying that the user, the
registrant, gets to decide what is personal
data or not, because THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE,
CLEAR LEGAL DEFINITION. So the user can
decide whether they want to be classified as
a legal person and “consent” to publishing
their data or not. As an example, that if I
decide that publishing the name of “Milton
Mueller’s Porkbelly Diner” is not a
violation of my privacy, it isn’t. It
doesn’t matter what the European Union says,
it’s my choice. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">And
let’s not overlook the embarrassing fact
that the European Union is now one of the
key players pushing hard for publication of
legal person data. But I’ll leave that one
to later. </span></p>
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