<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Amr and Stephanie,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thank you all for thorough explanation and details. It really helps. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">@Amr, I got it all. I missed the other parties in my previous analysis, my bad.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">@Stephanie , I specially like bullet point #3 and your footnote…:D Thanks for the hints.<br class=""><div class=""><div class="">
<div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">@__f_f__<br class=""><br class="">Best Regards<br class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">____________________________________</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">(Ekue) Farell FOLLY</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">GNSO Councillor</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><a href="http://linkedin.com/in/farellf" class="">linkedin.com/in/farellf</a> <br class=""></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=""></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; 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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 28 Mar 2020, at 16:44, Stephanie E Perrin <<a href="mailto:stephanie@digitaldiscretion.ca" class="">stephanie@digitaldiscretion.ca</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">If I may jump in here Farell, you are asking good questions.
There are a number of separate problems in attempting to
differentiate between legal and natural persons, which we have of
course been pointing out for a long time...the issue arose during
the Privacy Proxy Accreditation Issues working group, where a
lawyer acting for the IP constituency managed to get a legal study
she had done (which supported the differentiation) included as a
reference document even though we violently disagreed with it. It
arose in the context of the RDS PDP as well. So you would think
the topic might be exhausted by now, but no....</p><p class="">1. The concept of legal person is applied differently in
different jurisdictions, particularly as between civil law and
common law legal traditions. The definitions used in the GDPR
rely heavily on civil law traditions.</p><p class="">2. The determination of how an entity that engages in business
is registered tends to be done at a local level...municipal or
provincial, rarely at federal level except with respect to
taxation at the federal level. This makes things complex. Throw
this into a global context, as a registrar may register a domain
for all kinds of foreign entities, and it gets really difficult to
ensure accuracy.<br class="">
</p><p class="">3. Small entrepreneurs in particular, if they have not
incorporated, may be entitled in their jurisdiction to act as
individuals and have privacy protection under local law. This is
usually not well understood by the entrepreneur, whose expertise
is not likely in data protection law. I am particularly concerned
that individuals are not getting good advice and information from
ICANN about how they register their domain names. You should
register names in your own name, and lend them or rent them to the
entity to use, not register them in the company name, if there is
any risk that your organization might be closed down or go
bankrupt. Unless you don't care about losing your names. (I am
not a lawyer though, I stand ready to be corrected as I have asked
this question numerous times and as usual never got an answer.)</p><p class="">4. In many jurisdictions employees are entitled to protection of
their personal contact information as an employee within the
company...so for instance in Germany, you could not force an
employee to put their contact information on the net, even as
abuse@ <a href="http://company.com" class="">company.com</a> or <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:privacy@company.com">privacy@company.com</a>. IN order to do this,
in those jurisdictions, the company would need to obtain consent,
and it would have to be free, manifest and informed consent, which
is a high bar and not something the average registrar wants to be
evaluating. A registrar could ask the registrant to attest to
having obtained the consent of employees, but we know that will be
a tick box and it might not survive a Court challenge. Labour
laws might also be relevant here, if the company could be proven
to be acting in violation of labour laws.<br class="">
</p><p class="">5. I have suggested many times that companies who want their
data published (to help avoid trademark abuse and identity theft
that happens with fake bank registrations or Facebook
registrations, for instance) should develop an accreditation and
authentication scheme based on business numbers or incorporation
numbers, but noone has ever responded to that proposal. As for
criminals, they are never going to give valid information, contact
or otherwise, so why force small business owners to thread their
way through this legal morass?</p><p class="">6. A further complication is the status of NGOS, not for
profits, religious organizations, local children's soccer teams,
which globally have different status under local laws.<br class="">
</p><p class="">I hope that helps. The cost of addressing all these issues
responsibly. and providing the missing explanatory information
that we need to provide registrants in order to enable them to
self identify, is absolutely daunting. I think the registrars have
figured that one out.</p><p class="">cheers Stephanie</p><p class="">PS as a footnote (and further evidence that I can go on for hours
on this topic) we were forced to provide an exemption under our
definition of personal information in the Canadian law, in order
for "business card contact information" to be released by
commercial entities. It was that or not get the law
through....however, it is a terrible way to provide for release of
employee contact information. This information is still
essentially personal information, particularly as we move into a
world where more and more people work from home and may have
cellphones that give up geo location and blue tooth
information....these become important when we look at our
expectations for constitutional protection of our personal space.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2020-03-28 10:55 a.m., Farell FOLLY
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:83E63160-CEA2-45F3-B21A-E14E0D2F3AC7@benin2point0.org" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
Dear Amr,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks very well for this explanation which puts the
a brighter sport on that issue for me. However, I have two
questions for my own understanding.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<ol class="MailOutline">
<li class="">What does it mean personnel information of a
legal person (I have found some definitions in literature
but not really sure what it means the same thing here.</li>
<li class="">Secondly, I see in your first paragraph that Both
the NCSG and the contracted parties (Registries and
Registrars) advocated for the personal information to be
treated equally for both types of persons, therefore; what
justifies the bottleneck and the survey/study indicated
afterwards? Especially when the costs issues with no benefit
in return are added to..</li>
</ol>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I am sorry if all answers are in your e-mail, but
it does not appear clearly to me.</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks.</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
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<div dir="auto" style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:
after-white-space;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
@__f_f__<br class="">
<br class="">
Best Regards<br class="">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">____________________________________</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">(Ekue) Farell FOLLY</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">GNSO Councillor</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="http://linkedin.com/in/farellf" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">linkedin.com/in/farellf</a> <br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
</div>
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</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 28 Mar 2020, at 13:24, Amr Elsadr <<a href="mailto:aelsadr@ICANNPOLICY.NINJA" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">aelsadr@ICANNPOLICY.NINJA</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">Hi Kathy,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The topic of how to handle gTLD
Registration Data of legal vs natural persons at ICANN
was part of phase 1 of the EPDP, but was unresolved
because of different groups within ICANN advocating
for the Consensus Policy to treat the personal
information of legal persons differently from that of
natural persons. The NCSG, along with the Registrars
Stakeholder Group and the Registries Stakeholder Group
advocated for the personal information of legal
persons to be treated the same as that of natural
persons (that the requirements of redaction and
processing be the same for both).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We did make the arguments you outlined
below, as well as others including that often, a
Registrant identifying as a legal person is likely to
have the personal information of a natural person
included in its gTLD domain name registration data.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Also, it is important to take in to
consideration that the cost of implementation of the
phase 1 policy recommendations, and those of phase 2
concerning the Standardized System for Access and
Disclosure (SSAD) will likely be incredibly high with
little to no benefit to any parties other than users
of whois data (data requestors, or those who have
normally engaged in whois lookups). The NCSG members
of the EPDP Team did not believe that the cost of
implementing differentiation of how legal and natural
persons are treated is justifiable, we did not believe
that natural persons would practically receive the
protections they are afforded by law should
differentiation take place, and therefore, we also did
not believe that ICANN and its Contracted Parties
would be protected against legal liability should a
policy recommendation requiring differentiation be the
status quo.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">These positions created a deadlock on the
issue, as was the case with many topics…, well…, as is
normally the case on any Policy Development Process
Working Group. The compromise we reached in phase 1
was reflected in the final recommendation the EPDP
Team made to the GNSO Council on this (check
Recommendation 17 in the <a href="https://gnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/file/field-file-attach/epdp-gtld-registration-data-specs-final-20feb19-en.pdf" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Phase 1 Final Report</a>):</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><b class=""><i class="">“1) The EPDP
Team recommends that Registrars and Registry
Operators are permitted
to differentiate between registrations of legal
and natural persons, but are not
obligated to do so.</i></b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><i class="">2) The EPDP
Team recommends that as soon as possible ICANN
Org undertakes a
study, for which the terms of reference are
developed in consultation with the
community, that considers:</i></b>
<div class="page" title="Page 17">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column"><p class=""><b class=""><i class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>•
The feasibility and costs including both
implementation and potential liability
costs
of differentiating <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>between
legal and natural persons;</i></b></p>
<div class="page" title="Page 18">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column">
<ul class="">
<li class=""><p class=""><b class=""><i class="">Examples
of industries or other
organizations that have
successfully differentiated
between legal and natural
persons;
</i></b></p>
</li>
<li class=""><p class=""><b class=""><i class="">Privacy
risks to registered name
holders of differentiating
between legal and natural
persons; and
</i></b></p>
</li>
<li class=""><p class=""><b class=""><i class="">Other
potential risks (if any) to
registrars and registries of
not differentiating.
</i></b></p>
</li>
</ul><p class=""><b class=""><i class="">3)
The EPDP Team will determine and
resolve the Legal vs. Natural
issue in Phase 2.”</i></b></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class="page" title="Page 17">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column">
<div class="page" title="Page 18">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column"> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">This compromise allows Contracted
Parties to choose to differentiate between legal and
natural persons, but does not obligate them to do
so, pending the outcome in phase 2 of the EPDP,
which is meant to also take in to consideration the
study mentioned in the recommendation. This study
has not yet been conducted, but ICANN org has stated
that it plans on delivering the outcomes of this
study sometime in May 2020. The outcome of the study
is unlikely to change anything in terms of breaking
the deadlock. There is no expectation that
Contracted Parties will choose to differentiate,
since this will present as a financial burden to
them with no reward.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">To answer your question on when we need
to comment on this, Kathy, the answer is now. Rafik
just sent a notice of a public comment period
opening 2-days ago (26 March, 2020) on the addendum
to the phase 2 initial report. This is where the
legal vs natural issue is going to be addressed.
More details can be found here: <a href="https://www.icann.org/public-comments/epdp-phase-2-addendum-2020-03-26-en" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.icann.org/public-comments/epdp-phase-2-addendum-2020-03-26-en</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I hope this was helpful. Please do keep
the questions coming, if you have more, Kathy. This,
of course applies to anyone here. We have a
significantly large team of NCSG members working on
the EPDP, and we’re happy to answer questions or
hold discussions as often as needed.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Amr</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Mar 26, 2020, at 4:39 AM, <a href="mailto:kathy@dnrc.tech" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">kathy@dnrc.tech</a>
<<a href="mailto:kathy@DNRC.TECH" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">kathy@DNRC.TECH</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
Hi Amr, Milton and Stephanie,<br class="">
<br class="">
In the midst of so many things changing and
taking place, it's hard to<br class="">
track deadlines in ICANN. That said, I think
there was an important<br class="">
EPDP question last week which may have been
extended to later this<br class="">
week.<br class="">
<br class="">
Can you help point us to a) where we would
find the EPDP question<br class="">
about legal and natural persons and their
privacy protection?<br class="">
<br class="">
b) whether there is still time to submit
comments and<br class="">
<br class="">
c) what you recommend (including what
positions may be consistent with<br class="">
past/current NCSG positions)?<br class="">
<br class="">
Many thanks!<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
In my experience many small noncommercial
organizations, including<br class="">
political minority groups, are run by a few
individuals, have no<br class="">
independent location, and would have to list
the home address of one<br class="">
of their members in the WHOIS. Over the
years, individuals have<br class="">
expressed concern to me that they may be
targeted due to their views<br class="">
and the information or advocacy they are
sharing online (and fear they<br class="">
may be exposing their families to reprisals).<br class="">
<br class="">
I certainly support privacy for many types of
"legal persons,"<br class="">
especially in the nonprofit and organizational
space.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best regards, Kathy<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
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