<html><head></head><body>Hi Stephanie,<div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class="">I’m not asking that you bring back information on the sale, or that you violate an NDA. What I’m saying is that since the NCSG appoints a member to PIR’s Advisory Council, it can serve as a means to communicate to them proposals we come up with, concerning how PIR better serves its non-commercial .org (or other gTLDs) customers.</div><div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class="">This doesn’t mean that if any proposals we submit result in further discussion, that they remain with the Advisory Council, but could possibly include executives from PIR and Ethos engaging with our membership directly. This isn’t new. If you recall, the NCSG played a role in having PIR abandon plans to adopt private rights protection mechanisms for trademark holders a few years ago, when they were considering it.</div><div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class="">Thanks.</div><div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class="">Amr<br class=""/><div class=""><div><br class=""/><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 4, 2019, at 3:22 PM, Stephanie Perrin <<a href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@MAIL.UTORONTO.CA" class="">stephanie.perrin@MAIL.UTORONTO.CA</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""/>
<div class=""><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">I will respond to Amr on the matter of the Advisory Board representatives. Joan Kerr and I both serve on the PIR Advisory Board, I am your official rep but Joan is also on the Board. Unfortunately, we are not
at liberty as members of the Advisory Board to bring back what we learn to the list, as we were reminded recently of our non-disclosure agreements. I am happy to channel anything members care to discuss to my colleagues on the Advisory Board, including Jon
Nevett, but it is not a great two way mechanism for members to learn more about the sale.</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">Various members had requested that we do something. Sending a letter expressing our concerns, asking questions, or requesting a given outcome is in my view important, regardless of whether we get our desired result
in my view. Frankly, how often do we actually succeed at ICANN? (Please do not respond to that with a list of our successes, I am aware that many of our struggles yield better outcomes for non-commercial users than if we had not participated). My point
is, we are here to defend non-commercial interests and I would find it very odd if we remained silent on such a key issue, regardless of the likelihood of changing the outcome.</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">Obviously this whole discussion, as in our comments on the actual removal of price caps, has shone a light on our differences in terms of what we understand ICANN's role to be in matters of price control. Perhaps
a statement of that fundamental disagreement might be added to the letter. <br class=""/>
</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">Kind regards</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class="">Stephanie Perrin<br class=""/>
</font></font></p><p class=""><font size="+1" class=""><font face="Lucida Grande" class=""></font></font><br class=""/>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2019-12-04 06:52, Amr Elsadr wrote:<br class=""/>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:08D8DAB5-A3EC-47EF-9AF8-8EFE6E06D5D4@icannpolicy.ninja" class="">
Hi Michael,
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">Yeah…, my problem isn’t that I don’t want NCSG to engage on this, but as you suggest, my problem is with the text (and purpose) of this draft letter. I think NCSG should get stuck into this issue, but hope that we don’t take the lead from other
civil society organizations by simply objecting to the sale (which imo isn't such a disaster).</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">I had indicated earlier on this thread that Milton proposed a few solid improvements to protections that the NCSG should try to negotiate. I’ve been toying around with at least one myself, but am not settled yet on what the best way to proceed
might be.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">We do have several means of engaging with this event, such as via correspondence with the ICANN BoD, but my thinking right now is that the preferred first step would be to open a channel of communication with PIR, either directly from the NCSG
to PIR, or via our representative on the PIR Advisory Council.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">If this thing can be turned around to get clear commitments from PIR on empowering civil society through its gTLDs, I believe this would be a win. Ethos and PIR have both declared their intent to better serve the NGO .org community. I’m not saying
we take them at their word, but believe we should test their declarations before condemning them, and definitely before giving up on possibly getting something better out of this than was the status-quo before the announcement of the agreement to sell by ISOC
was made.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">Thanks.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">Amr</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class=""/>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 4, 2019, at 1:07 PM, Michael J. Oghia <<a href="mailto:mike.oghia@gmail.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">mike.oghia@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/>
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Amr,
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">It's always good to hear from you, and all fair points.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">Let me clarify that, to me, staying silent about this undermines what we stand for. The complexities regarding the how (i.e., what recommendations to suggest, etc.) are open to discussion. I simply don't think that the NCSG should not formally
address this, especially when there is enough evidence to suggest that there could be potential harm to the interests of non-commercial registrants.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">If you simply disagree with addressing the issue via a statement or additional advocacy, then it's a moot point. If the issue is with the text itself, however, would you be willing to draft something else that articulates any missing nuance or
suggestions for routes going forward?</div>
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-Michael</font>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 10:50 AM Amr Elsadr <<a href="mailto:aelsadr@icannpolicy.ninja" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">aelsadr@icannpolicy.ninja</a>> wrote:<br class=""/>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">Hi Michael,
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">Issuing formal statements is not the most important reason for NCSG’s existence. Advancing the interests of non-commercial registrants through gTLD policy development is. This is explained nicely in the <a href="https://community.icann.org/display/gnsononcomstake/Charter" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG
Charter</a>.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">The only letters the NCSG should be interested in issuing are the ones that advance its mission. I don’t believe the letter being discussed on this thread achieves this. I would hope that the NCSG would be a little more ambitious in what it might
get for non-commercial registrants out of all this. Not trying is what would be the
<i class="">“injustice to our values/principles”</i>.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">Thanks.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">Amr<br class=""/>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 4, 2019, at 11:10 AM, Michael J. Oghia <<a href="mailto:mike.oghia@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">mike.oghia@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class=""/>
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Agreed Ayden. As the non-commercial constituency, I think it would be an injustice to our values/principles and our entire raison d'etre if we didn't issue at least some kind of formal statement about this. I don't think doing so would
contradict the more nuanced technical and political maneuvering that Milton and others suggest in terms of possible recourse.
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<div dir="ltr" class=""><font class="" face="arial,
helvetica,
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-Michael</font>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 9:59 AM Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">icann@ferdeline.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""/>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<blockquote class="">
<div class="">I think Lizzy and Milton among others have drawn lot of attention to non effect of this letter or any other one.<br class=""/>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">Hi,<br class=""/>
</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">I agree that sending this letter would be unlikely to have an effect. I just don't think that's a reason to remain silent and not send one. Shouldn't we at least try?<br class=""/>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">Best wishes, Ayden <br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐<br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="">On Wednesday, 4 December 2019 01:31, Remmy Nweke <<a href="mailto:remmyn@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">remmyn@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:<br class=""/>
</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div class="">Hi all<br class=""/>
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">I think Lizzy and Milton among others have drawn lot of attention to non effect of this letter or any other one.<br class=""/>
</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">I will like to suggest to those of us who have hanged around .org TLD to start thinking of plan B including getting alternate domain and redirect the current one and if hosted by PIR find alternative too depending on the agreement abnitio.<br class=""/>
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Regards<br class=""/>
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Remmy<br class=""/>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Tue, Dec 3, 2019, 8:33 PM Liz Orembo <<a href="mailto:lizorembo@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">lizorembo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""/>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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<div dir="auto" class="">
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">ICANN has no authority to stop the sale of PIR to a private entity. But this sale is unethical from multiple dimensions and among other things will have a negative impact on the future of Multistakeholderism in the IG ecosystem.<br class=""/>
</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">I bet no one saw this coming, and mixed with ISOC being too familiar at the time of auctioning contributed to this legal loophole. <br class=""/>
</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">As NCSG I don't think our efforts to influence ICANN broad to halt this sale will yield anything. But surely the board is free to issue an advise against the sale. The silence makes it seem like everything is okay or at least it is
supporting this madness.<br class=""/>
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class=""/>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Tue, Dec 3, 2019, 21:19 Mueller, Milton L <<a href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">milton@gatech.edu</a>> wrote:<br class=""/>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
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<div class="" lang="EN-US">
<div class=""><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">I’ve reviewed this letter and I think it takes the wrong approach and should be scrapped.
</span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">It is basically asking ICANN to just stop the sale, which it has no real authority to do, and does not offer
a viable set of protections for .org registrants. </span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">It’s about expressing anger and not about constructive response.</span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Dr. Milton L Mueller</span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">School of Public Policy
</span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Georgia Institute of Technology</span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""><img style="width:
2.1354in;
height:
0.4583in;" alt="IGP_logo_gold
block_email
sig" class="" moz-do-not-send="true" width="205" height="44"/></span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> </span></span></span><br class=""/>
</p><p class=""><b class=""><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">From:</span></span></b><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class=""> NCSG-Discuss <<a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a>>
<b class="">On Behalf Of </b>Ayden Férdeline<br class=""/>
<b class="">Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 3, 2019 7:51 AM<br class=""/>
<b class="">To:</b> <a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">
NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br class=""/>
<b class="">Subject:</b> [proposed letter] NCSG Concerns About the Sale of the Public Interest Registry to Ethos Capital</span></span></p><p class=""> <br class=""/>
</p>
<div class=""><p class="">Dear all,<br class=""/>
</p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class=""> <br class=""/>
</p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="">I have drafted a letter outlining some concerns about the proposed sale of PIR to Ethos Capital.
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GNSxNtZ7k-TtvQkpVXhlSABxi0JYVzDNHU7zZCQtiPU/edit?usp=sharing" title="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GNSxNtZ7k-TtvQkpVXhlSABxi0JYVzDNHU7zZCQtiPU/edit?usp=sharing" rel="noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">
It is in a Google Doc here.</a> In a nutshell, I am calling for ICANN to exercise its right in article 7.5 of the .ORG, .NGO, and .ONG Registry Agreements to withhold its approval for ISOC to assign its rights and obligations to Ethos Capital. I hope that the
NCSG might consider sending it. Feel free to make/propose edits directly into the document. If the NCSG does not feel comfortable sending it, perhaps interested individuals could sign on instead and we can send it off in our individual capacities? Thanks.<br class=""/>
</p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class=""> <br class=""/>
</p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="">Best wishes,<br class=""/>
</p>
</div>
<div class=""><p class="">Ayden Férdeline<br class=""/>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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