<html><head></head><body>Hi Kathy,<div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class="">Apologies for not responding sooner (and also for a long read, if you care to go through it all), and I know the NCSG has already submitted a comment asking for the price caps to remain in place, so I’m only really sending this reply to respond to your assertion below, and for the discussion to continue should anybody care to look in to this any further. I don’t believe you’ve proven or disproven anything with your subsequent email. If you want to go with what the contract says, you have to go with what ALL of it says.</div><div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class="">Here’s what you said:</div><div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class=""><div class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 27, 2019, at 1:19 AM, Kathy Kleiman <<a href="mailto:kathy@DNRC.TECH" class="">kathy@DNRC.TECH</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""/></div>[SNIP]<br class=""/><div class=""><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal;"><span class="" style="font-size: 12pt;">[2.10(a) Registries provide registrars with a 30 day notice of price increases (registrations).<span class="">  </span></span></p></blockquote><div class="">Right, and as you’ve pointed out, this concerns new registrations, not renewals, so has no effect on CS/NFP organizations looking to renew domain names registered under .org</div><div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal;"><span class="" style="font-size: 12pt;">2.10(b) “With respect to renewal of domain name registrants” Registry will provide registrars with “advance written notice of any price increase, and “</span><span class="" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Registry Operator shall offer registrars the option to obtain domain name registration renewals at the current price (i.e., the price in place prior to any noticed increase) for periods of one (1) to ten (10) years at the discretion of the registrar, but no greater than ten (10) years.” </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal;"><b class=""><i class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 12pt;">But the option to allow renewal for 1 to 10 years is at the option of the registrar. There’s nothing that requires the registrar to notify registrants that the price of their .ORG domain names will be going (possibly dramatically) and that the time to renew is now. This is something that is being written about a lot, but I don’t see it in the contract. (Some registrars may let their registrants know early; others may not.) There is absolutely no requirement of notice to the registrant of a price increase for renewals – for .ORG (or any other registry which has signed this agreement).</span></i></b></p></div></blockquote></div><div class="">Here, we move on to the issue of renewals, and you don’t see the bit on the notification to registrants here, because it isn’t here. It’s further down in 2.10(c). However, my reading of 2.10 leads me to believe that 2.10(b) and (c) need to be analyzed together, or in other words…, how they might complement each other.</div><div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class="">Then you go on to say this:</div><div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal;"><span class="" style="font-size: 12pt;">2.10(c) “In addition, Registry Operator must have uniform pricing for renewals of domain name registrations (“Renewal Pricing”). For the purposes of determining Renewal Pricing, the price for each domain registration renewal must be identical to the price of all other domain name registration renewals at the time of such renewal” <span class=""> </span>with some vague additional language about not wanting to allow abusive and discriminatory renewal pricing. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal;"><b class=""><i class=""><span class="" style="font-size: 12pt;">Thus, PIR’s job is to charge all registrars the same price for new registrations and renewals – whatever that price is and however much PIR wants to charge. This is no guidance about abusive and discriminatory renewal pricing, no definitions and no clear limitations.</span></i></b></p></div></blockquote></div><div class="">Important to note again that we’re still discussing renewals here. A combination of 2.10(b) and 2.10(c) to me reads that all that is required is for one registrar to choose to renew at the same price for a period of up to 10 years, and the Registry Operator will be required to fix its renewal rates at that same price across the board with all registrars. Noting that there are comments out there by registrars opposing the price cap removal, I’m guessing that at least one of them will take advantage of this clause in the contract, should PIR’s contract be amended.</div><div class=""><br class=""/></div><div class="">More importantly, I’m not sure why you selectively left out the parts of 2.10(c). You say the language is vague, but I don’t find it to be as vague as you do, provided that I have not misunderstood it, of course. Section 2.10(c) says (apologies for the lengthy bit of text below, but I’ve bolded the parts I want to emphasize):</div><div style="text-indent: 96px;" class=""><br class=""/></div><div style="text-indent: 96px;" class=""><i class="">“<span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-indent: 96px; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><span style="font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: "Times New Roman";" class=""> </span></span><span style="text-indent: 96px;" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" size="3" class="">In addition, Registry Operator must have uniform pricing for renewals of domain name registrations (“Renewal Pricing”).  For the purposes of determining Renewal Pricing, the price for each domain registration renewal must be identical to the price of all other domain name registration renewals in place at the time of such renewal, and such price must take into account universal application of any refunds, rebates, discounts, product tying or other programs in place at the time of renewal.  <b class=""><u class="">The foregoing requirements of this Section 2.10(c) shall not apply for (i) purposes of determining Renewal Pricing if the registrar has provided Registry Operator with documentation that demonstrates that the applicable registrant expressly agreed in its registration agreement with registrar to higher Renewal Pricing at the time of the initial registration of the domain name following clear and conspicuous disclosure of such Renewal Pricing to such registrant</u></b>, and (ii) discounted Renewal Pricing pursuant to a Qualified Marketing Program (as defined below).  <b class=""><u class="">The parties acknowledge that the purpose of this Section 2.10(c) is to prohibit abusive and/or discriminatory Renewal Pricing practices imposed by Registry Operator without the written consent of the applicable registrant at the time of the initial registration of the domain and this Section 2.10(c) will be interpreted broadly to prohibit such practices</u></b>.  For purposes of this Section 2.10(c), a “Qualified Marketing Program” is a marketing program pursuant to which Registry Operator offers discounted Renewal Pricing, provided that each of the following criteria is satisfied:  (i) the program and related discounts are offered for a period of time not to exceed one hundred eighty (180) calendar days (with consecutive substantially similar programs aggregated for purposes of determining the number of calendar days of the program), (ii) all ICANN accredited registrars are provided the same opportunity to qualify for such discounted Renewal Pricing; and (iii) the intent or effect of the program is not to exclude any particular class(es) of registrations (e.g., registrations held by large corporations) or increase the renewal price of any particular class(es) of registrations.  Nothing in this Section 2.10(c) shall limit Registry Operator’s obligations pursuant to Section 2.10(b).”</font></span></i></div></div></div><div><br class=""/></div><div>So basically, the Registry Operator must have uniform pricing for renewals, taking in to account any registrar’s ability to lock those renewal prices up for a period of up to 10 years. An exception would be if <i class=""><b class="">“the applicable registrant expressly agreed in its registration agreement with the registrar to higher Renewal Pricing at the time of the initial registration of the domain name following clear and conspicuous disclosure of such Renewal Pricing to such registrant”</b></i>. Seeing that no registrants have agreed to clear and conspicuous disclosures of renewal pricing, since there haven’t been any in the past, why do you find this to be vague?</div><div><br class=""/></div><div>Thanks.</div><div><br class=""/></div><div>Amr</div><div><br class=""/><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 30, 2019, at 4:53 AM, Kathy Kleiman <<a href="mailto:kathy@DNRC.TECH" class="">kathy@DNRC.TECH</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/><div class="">
  
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class=""/>
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">Milton, I showed in a substantial, subsequent email how those
      comments don't actually track the language of 2.10, the pricing
      provisions of the new Registry agreement.  I included each
      subsection, a summary, and then the full contractual language.
      Ultimately, we have to go with what the contract says... <br class=""/>
    </p><p class="">Please see my follow-up email. There is absolutely no provision
      for notification of registrants, unfortunately... <br class=""/>
    </p><p class="">Best, Kathy<br class=""/>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/29/2019 10:48 PM, Mueller, Milton
      L wrote:<br class=""/>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:FB63DC96-5510-43DC-9615-964D58562984@gatech.edu" class="">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class=""/>
      <br class=""/>
      In answer to Ayden and Michael I am resending to the list comments
      Amr made a few days ago. They show how the new Registry Agreement
      still limits price increases effectively. I guess folks who are
      panicking about uncontrolled price increases didn’t read the
      actual registry agreement. 
      <div class=""><br class=""/>
      </div>
      <div class="">So no, Ayden I am not impressed with the comments of the
        existing .org registrants because it seems like they are not
        well-informed - all they hear is the phrase “no more price
        caps”. Seems like the price increases only affect new
        registrants. </div>
      <div class=""><br class=""/>
      </div>
      <div class="">But why let facts get in the way of your fun, eh?<br class=""/>
        <div class=""><br class=""/>
          <div dir="ltr" class="">Milton L Mueller
            <div class="">Professor, School of Public Policy</div>
            <div class="">Georgia Institute of Technology</div>
          </div>
          <div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""/>
            Begin forwarded message:<br class=""/>
            <br class=""/>
          </div>
          <blockquote type="cite" class="">
            <div dir="ltr" class=""><b class="">From:</b> Amr Elsadr <<a href="mailto:aelsadr@icannpolicy.ninja" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">aelsadr@icannpolicy.ninja</a>><br class=""/>
              <b class="">Date:</b> April 25, 2019 at 16:33:35 EDT<br class=""/>
              <b class="">To:</b> <a href="mailto:milton@GATECH.EDU" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">milton@GATECH.EDU</a><br class=""/>
              <b class="">Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br class=""/>
              <b class="">Subject:</b> <b class="">Re: [Urgent] [Public Comment] Proposed
                Renewal of .org Registry Agreement</b><br class=""/>
              <b class="">Reply-To:</b> Amr Elsadr <<a href="mailto:aelsadr@icannpolicy.ninja" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">aelsadr@icannpolicy.ninja</a>><br class=""/>
              <br class=""/>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <blockquote type="cite" class="">
            <div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Milton,
              <div class=""><br class=""/>
              </div>
              <div class="">If my understanding of Section 2.10 of the
                Registry Agreement is correct, registrars can continue
                to renew existing registrations without an increase in
                price following an increase in pricing of new
                registrations by the Registry Operator (RO) for a period
                of up to 10 years. Additionally, ROs are required to
                have uniform pricing for registration renewals. This
                would mean that all renewal prices would remain
                unchanged, unless they all change across all registrars
                simultaneously.</div>
              <div class=""><br class=""/>
              </div>
              <div class="">The protections for existing registrants
                referred to are detailed in 2.10c of the Registry
                Agreement. The protection is basically that registrants
                have to agree to renewal prices higher than that of the
                original registration at the time of the initial
                registration. It can’t be forced upon them at a later
                date. This is meant as a provision to
                <i class="">“<span style="font-family: Cambria, serif;
                    font-size: 16px; text-indent: 96px;" class="">prohibit
                    abusive and/or discriminatory Renewal Pricing
                    practices imposed by Registry Operator without the
                    written consent of the applicable registrant at the
                    time of the initial registration of the domain</span>“</i>.</div>
              <div class=""><br class=""/>
              </div>
              <div class="">Thanks.</div>
              <div class=""><br class=""/>
              </div>
              <div class="">Amr </div>
              <div class="">
                <div class=""><br class=""/>
                  <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                    <div class="">On Apr 25, 2019, at 9:30 PM, Mueller,
                      Milton L <<a href="mailto:milton@GATECH.EDU" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">milton@GATECH.EDU</a>>
                      wrote:</div>
                    <br class="Apple-interchange-newline"/>
                    <div class="">
                      <div class="WordSection1" style="page:
                        WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
                        font-family: TrebuchetMS; font-size: 14px;
                        font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                        font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                        text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                        text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                        word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                        0px; text-decoration: none;">
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: "Times New
                          Roman", serif;" class="">
                          <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                            Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
                            125);" class="">I agree with the letter’s
                            discussion of URS and other RPMs. I agree
                            with Amr that we may need to moderate the
                            language about “unilateral ICANN action”
                            however because PIR may indeed have gone
                            along with this.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: "Times New
                          Roman", serif;" class="">
                          <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                            Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
                            125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: "Times New
                          Roman", serif;" class="">
                          <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                            Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
                            125);" class="">On the issue of price caps,
                            I think we need some factual clarification.
                            If Amr is right and the potential price
                            increases only apply to new registrants,
                            then there is much less of an issue. The
                            proposed renewal says “</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                            Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);
                            background-color: white;
                            background-position: initial initial;
                            background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Protections for existing
                            registrants will remain in place, in line
                            with the base registry agreement.“</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
                            Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
                            125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: "Times New
                          Roman", serif;" class="">
                          <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                            Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
                            125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: "Times New
                          Roman", serif;" class="">
                          <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                            Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
                            125);" class="">What, exactly, are those
                            “protections for existing registrants”?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: "Times New
                          Roman", serif;" class="">
                          <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                            Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
                            125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: "Times New
                          Roman", serif;" class="">
                          <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                            Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
                            125);" class="">MM<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
                        <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
                          12pt; font-family: "Times New
                          Roman", serif;" class="">
                          <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                            Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
                            125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
                        <div class="">
                          <div style="border-style: solid none none;
                            border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color:
                            rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class="">
                            <div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
                              font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times
                              New Roman", serif;" class="">
                              <b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
                                Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>NCSG-Discuss
                                <<a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU" style="color: purple; text-decoration:
                                  underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Amr
                                Elsadr<br class=""/>
                                <b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday,
                                April 25, 2019 10:33 AM<br class=""/>
                                <b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU" style="color: purple;
                                  text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br class=""/>
                                <b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
                                [Urgent] [Public Comment] Proposed
                                Renewal of .org Registry Agreement<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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                          <o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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                          Hi,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                            <o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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                            Thanks for sharing this, Rafik. Speaking for
                            myself, I very much agree with the comment
                            on adding the new gTLD Rights Protection
                            Mechanisms (RPMs) to the PIR contract for
                            .org at this time. As the draft comment
                            rightly points out, these RPMs will not
                            actually be Consensus Policies until after
                            the ICANN Board adopts the recommendations
                            of the Review of all RPMs in all gTLDs PDP
                            Working Group, and should not apply to any
                            of the legacy gTLDs, including .org. However
                            to characterize the decision to do so as a
                            unilateral ICANN decision is something I’m
                            not sure of. I presume that PIR negotiated
                            this with ICANN before the public comment
                            period began? I might be wrong, as I’m
                            making an assumption here.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                            To be clear, the RPMs that would be
                            applicable here (if I’m not mistaken) are
                            the Uniform Rapid Suspension (URS) and the
                            Trademark Claims RPM (part of the Trademark
                            Clearing House), but not the Sunrise
                            Registrations RPM, obviously, since .org has
                            been around for a while.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                            <o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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                            Substantively, I don’t believe the URS will
                            be much of an issue, since it is largely
                            deemed to be an unappealing mechanism for
                            use by Trademark holders, as the stats and
                            anecdotal evidence that has been shared to
                            date indicate. The impact of Trademark
                            Claims, on the other hand, might be very
                            different, and prior to it being reviewed by
                            the RPMs PDP, and adopted as an ICANN
                            policy, I don’t believe adding it to the
                            .org contract in a renewal is a good move.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                            <o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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                            On the second issue, where the draft comment
                            disagrees with removing price caps for .org
                            registrations, I’m pretty sure I don’t agree
                            with the rationale or conclusion. I don’t
                            believe PIR’s status as a non-profit entity
                            justifies this. IMO, it imposes unreasonable
                            obligations on PIR that other Registry
                            Operators are not subject to, so effectively
                            penalizing PIR for its status, and its
                            continued mission to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">“support many excellent causes”</i>,
                            as pointed out in the draft.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                            <o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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                            Furthermore, there is little to no evidence
                            that I can see (at least in the draft) that
                            registrants of .org domain names will be
                            negatively impacted by removal of the price
                            cap. My understanding is that this will
                            mainly impact new registrations, not
                            existing ones, but this isn’t addressed at
                            all.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                            <o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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                            To me, PIR needs to set its own price taking
                            in to consideration their own consumer base.
                            If they make bad decisions that drive their
                            customers away, I don’t believe this will
                            negatively impact registrants as much as it
                            would PIR itself, especially considering
                            that there are over a thousand gTLDs for
                            registrants to migrate to, should they
                            choose to do so.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                            <o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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                            Thanks.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                            <o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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                            Amr<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                              <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
                            <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt;
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                                  On Apr 25, 2019, at 3:59 PM, Rafik
                                  Dammak <<a href="mailto:rafik.dammak@GMAIL.COM" style="color: purple;
                                    text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">rafik.dammak@GMAIL.COM</a>>
                                  wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                                      Hi all,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                                        We have a suggested draft
                                        comment ( attached) on proposed
                                        renewal of .org agreement  <a href="https://www.icann.org/public-comments/org-renewal-2019-03-18-en" style="color: purple;
                                          text-decoration: underline;" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.icann.org/public-comments/org-renewal-2019-03-18-en</a>.
                                        The deadline for submission is
                                        the 29th April and for NCSG PC
                                        to review and endorse. Please
                                        share your comments abd input.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                                        <o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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                                        Best Regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                                        Rafik <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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                                  <Org Letter Rev.docx></div>
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    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Kathy Kleiman
Visiting Scholar, Center for Information Technology, Princeton University
President (on leave), Domain Name Rights Coalition</pre>
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