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The ICANN bylaws.
<div class="">And yes it is, NCSG is a legal creation of the ICANN bylaws.</div>
<div class="">Please at minimum read the ICANN bylaws.<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 13 Jan 2019, at 16:03, Raoul Plommer <<a href="mailto:plommer@gmail.com" class="">plommer@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Where are those sections from, James? Or maybe you could actually quote the bits that you think are in conflict with my plan?
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">When we create a separate legal entity, it's not dependent on ICANN bylaws or charters.
<br class="">
<br class="">
Maybe you could elaborate a little, what were the issues for CSG, when they created their nonprofit entity in states? They might've actually had a different setup, what we're about to do.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I have a very minimal set of rules in mind. Basically just covering the legal requirements of Estonia to set up a nonprofit. For example, it needs only two responsible people, as opposed to three in Finland.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-Raoul</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 16:54, James Gannon <<a href="mailto:james@cyberinvasion.net" class="">james@cyberinvasion.net</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">And your totally fine defining how this legal entity will interact with Section 6.1, 6.2, 6.3, 11.3, 11.5 18.7, 19.5, 18.2 and the entire NCSG and NCUC/NPOC charter requirements?
<div class="">Because that’s a hell of a constitution/bylaw set to write and send for review to ICANN legal and work with them to make sure they are also happy.<br class="">
</div>
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<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 13 Jan 2019, at 15:09, Raoul Plommer <<a href="mailto:plommer@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank" class="">plommer@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="gmail-m_-812180066222079074Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">The way it would be setup, is to actually create a supporting organisation, that would act as a legal entity in Estonia. Therefore, it would actually be an entirely separate legal entity from ICANN. The only thing in common, would actually
be the people running those organisations.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We don't need to use it for anything else, than opening an account and reaping benefits that a registered nonprofit organisation can get, as opposed to an unregisterd one.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Because I've been in many boards of nonprofit organisations and chair one myself that I founded and wrote the charter to, I actually think I'm perfectly capable of handling this registration and I know exactly what it involves. However, the reason
to my initial email in this thread was basically to see, if people are interested in improving the current situation, which is a bit shameful in my view. I also admitted in my first email that the details weren't entirely clear, because I have not opened
an account in Estonia, nor have I registered an organisation there. I would very much suspect that they are actually _easier_, than in Finland. This is usually the case. It very much seems people are interested and I will continue my research on this matter,
to provide those exact details.<br class="">
<br class="">
Because NPOC is looking for an account anyway, it makes sense to start there. It also makes sense to use an interim solution for NCSG and since Sam and Joan are already the owners of an account that has had zero transactions, I suggest you could use that. They
are both NCSG members and our chair happens to live in the same country too. That is by far the easiest solution for NCSG, for now.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-Raoul</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 15:45, Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" class="">icann@ferdeline.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">I did read your entire email, Raoul. With respect, I do not think you are qualified to offer us advice on the legal implications or accounting structure that we - or NPOC - should have in place. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">These are difficult questions, and we need not creative interpretations of how one thinks something could work, but sound, constructive, and feasible advice of arrangements that will not cause us trouble down the line. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-812180066222079074gmail-m_-2764576979428729826protonmail_mobile_signature_block" class="">
Ayden</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 14:37, Raoul Plommer <<a href="mailto:plommer@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">plommer@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail-m_-812180066222079074gmail-m_-2764576979428729826protonmail_quote" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Ayden, I guess you didn't bother to read the last paragraph of my email, before quickly typing up your personal disdain.
<div class=""><br class="">
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I now have the ambition of creating a registered organisation to "support" NPOC in Estonia and open a bank account for it. It will also need its own charter but I already know how to go about it. Once we have all this set up and working, perhaps NCUC and NCSG
can then be better persuaded to follow the same route. <br class="">
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I'd also be curious to hear, what exactly are the benefits of keeping our current haphazard model? I can't really see any, apart from that we are used to them.</div>
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<div class="">-Raoul</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 13:32, Ayden Férdeline <<a href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank" class="">icann@ferdeline.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">I am disappointed that the concerns that Moritz has raised have been glossed aside so quickly, as his concerns are well-founded. I think this proposal - that the NCSG open a bank account in Estonia - is under-developed and I don't see how the
NCSG Executive Committee could be in a position to properly assess the risks in the absence of independent legal advice. As Stephanie alluded to in an earlier email, there are benefits to our current structure, and if there is to be a change to it, I think
it should be on the basis of a solid proposal and informed legal opinion, and not written on the back of a napkin.
<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ayden <br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-812180066222079074gmail-m_-2764576979428729826gmail-m_-1558195515324784188protonmail_signature_block">
<div class="gmail-m_-812180066222079074gmail-m_-2764576979428729826gmail-m_-1558195515324784188protonmail_signature_block-empty gmail-m_-812180066222079074gmail-m_-2764576979428729826gmail-m_-1558195515324784188protonmail_signature_block-proton">
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<div class="">‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐<br class="">
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<div class="">On Sunday, January 13, 2019 11:19 AM, Raoul Plommer <<a href="mailto:plommer@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank" class="">plommer@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail-m_-812180066222079074gmail-m_-2764576979428729826gmail-m_-1558195515324784188protonmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Yes, I am well aware of the maintenance, that a nonprofit organisation needs, for I created one a little over a year ago and am the chair of it. I'm quite sure Estonia is less strict on things than Finland and maintaining the necessary skeleton
of a nonprofit org is actually not that hard.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In any case, the fiscal responsibility is the hardest part, but even that means that we just need to store receipts of our transactions and submit them at the end of the year. We are doing this anyway. I would also say, that all three organisations
have less than ten transactions per year.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I now have the ambition of creating a registered organisation to "support" NPOC in Estonia and open a bank account for it. It will also need its own charter but I already know how to go about it. Once we have all this set up and working, perhaps
NCUC and NCSG can then be better persuaded to follow the same route.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-Raoul<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="">On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 00:16, Moritz Bartl <<a href="mailto:bartl@renewablefreedom.org" target="_blank" class="">bartl@renewablefreedom.org</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">On 08.01.19 09:30, James Gannon wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">> This is a lot more complicated a topic than I think people are giving<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">> credit to.<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">> No-one has yet spoken about legal liabilities that come from<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">> establishing a legal entity, and I also don’t believe that anyone has<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">> spoken to ICANN legal yet (Currently we only exist as an entity within<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">> the ICANN bylaws, also there are interactions with the Empowered<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">> Community responsibilities that would need to be incorporated into the<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">> establishment of any entity).<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">> <br class="">
</div>
<div class="">> Please don’t take this as a negative thing, but I think people are<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">> underestimating the work and complexity involved here.<br class="">
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<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">This. A hundred times this.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">What is being discussed here is _not_ merely "opening a bank account".<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">What you are discussing is to set up organizations.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">At our foundation, a lot of what we do is help grassroots/early stage<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">projects bootstrap, to help them set up their own non-profits (and<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">sometimes for-profits), and to deal with the complexities arising from it.<br class="">
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<div class="">My usual recommendation is to think hard about it, and to better partner<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">with an existing organization that has good procedures to cover your own<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">governance model. This is called "fiscal sponsorship", a concept well<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">established in the US (with a lot of providers) but not so much in<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Europe. We also started our own fiscal sponsor for free software<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">projects in 2016, now handling 15+ projects with distributed teams and<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">loose membership, with an annual budget of more than 500k.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We have investigated "the Estonian model". Don't be fooled by the ease<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">of setting up: You also need to maintain it. There is little information<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">available about Estonians non-profit tax regime and laws regarding<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">international activities. I know from our own work that in many European<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">countries, acting internationally is _not_ straightforward, and you<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">cannot simply pay whatever invoices and travel without carefully<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">crafting bylaws, defining governance structures, and having a story<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">around every singe receipt. Someone needs to make sure this information<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">is there. It is NOT simply a meeting every once in a while, it requires<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">constant caretaking or it will cause a lot of headaches for the poor<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">soul that needs to clean up.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Fiscal sponsors have established processes, support somewhat<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">fuzzy/in-process governance models, and of course don't require a change<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">of legal bank account owner.<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">If you run an account under your name, or a shared account with someone<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">else, you have the full legal responsibility. But, maybe more<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">importantly, what you receive to this account is (shared) income. If you<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">don't declare it with your taxes, you are committing tax fraud. If you<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">buy services, you buy them for you, and they become your legal<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">responsibility. You can do so as a group, no problem, but you are not<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">magically "not a legal entity".<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">You will not be able to create "an international organization". An<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">organization always needs a location and thus a tax regime it will<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">operate under. There are some "modern forms" like the European SE, but<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">they are mostly European in name/appearance and not by jurisdiction:<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_Europaea" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societas_Europaea</a><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-- <br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Moritz Bartl, Germany<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Renewable Freedom Foundation<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><a href="https://www.renewablefreedom.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://www.renewablefreedom.org/</a><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Center for the Cultivation of Technology<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><a href="https://www.techcultivation.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://www.techcultivation.org/</a><br class="">
</div>
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