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<p>I certainly agree with you there Raoul, we should not store
personal data about participation in groups. Nothing prevents us
from asking members to indicate how many groups they participate
in who are also members of NCUC/NCSG. <br>
</p>
cheers Stephanie<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2018-09-11 11:22 AM, Raoul Plommer
wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:CADirp9R3i7EbkzLH_pPXQAdY=tOuWUVrYXEr5vPBvNo6PK3WfA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span
style="font-family:"Lucida
Grande";font-size:large">We should try to make this
uncomplicated, whilst protecting against undue influence of
a particular organization. As to whether privacy law
prevents us from asking members who they represent, I am
consulting my legal contacts because I am sure there is a
legally compliant way to do this. I do not share Raoul's
view that this is "paranoid".</span> </blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Stephanie, we can't really monitor who are members of which
organisation, outside the ICANN organisations and we can't
store that information because of the GDPR. Being scared of an
organisational takeover isn't a valid concern to store this
kind of sensitive data, that's all I meant about being
paranoid. I'll be gladly admitting my assumption false if your
legal contacts tell you otherwise - I'm no lawyer after all.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Raoul</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 17:43, Mueller, Milton L
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:milton@gatech.edu">milton@gatech.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
disagree, Stephanie.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Indeed,
I think it’s completely absurd to have organizations
that have 45,000 members with the same voting power as
an individual. Many major noncommercial organizations
will simply refuse to join a constituency with that
kind of a voting structure. We make a pretty simple
and flat voting structure, with large orgs, small orgs
and individuals. There are more individuals than
organizations, so it works out fairly balanced.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
agree with Sam that voting is relatively unimportant
except when it comes to election of officers.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">It
takes a lot of trouble and time to organize a vote, so
the idea that every administrative decision has to be
voted on by the membership is impractical.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">For
those unaware of the history, NCUC started as an
organization-only constituency, and so did NPOC.
Because of the problems many people have getting
authorization to “represent” entire organizations, and
in order to allow for broader participation, we
allowed individual membership. We adjusted voting
shares accordingly.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Dr.
Milton L Mueller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Professor,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://spp.gatech.edu/" target="_blank"><span
style="color:#0563c1">School of Public Policy</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Georgia
Institute of Technology</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Internet
Governance Project
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://internetgovernance.org/"
target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">http://internetgovernance.org/</span></a>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
NCSG-Discuss [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU"
target="_blank">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Stephanie Perrin<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 11, 2018 8:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU"
target="_blank">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
Procedures/Individual/organizations membership
at NCSG</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida
Grande",serif">I agree. I think it is entirely
problematic to provide more votes for larger
organizations. I also share a concern about
differentiating between the participation of a
member as a rep of an organization, or as an
individual. People should declare their status and
that is an end of it. If a member who represents an
organization has a strong personal view in a matter
that is not supported by their organization, surely
they can explain their viewpoint with a caveat. </span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida
Grande",serif">We should try to make this
uncomplicated, whilst protecting against undue
influence of a particular organization. As to
whether privacy law prevents us from asking members
who they represent, I am consulting my legal
contacts because I am sure there is a legally
compliant way to do this. I do not share Raoul's
view that this is "paranoid". I think it is
essential to have sound principles in place in our
policies, to protect the diversity of our
membership, and the essential human rights values of
NCSG.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Lucida
Grande",serif">Stephanie Perrin</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2018-09-10 16:14, farzaneh
badii wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Farzaneh
</span>
</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:41
PM Sam Lanfranco <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lanfran@yorku.ca"
target="_blank">lanfran@yorku.ca</a>>
wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">Dear NCSG
Colleagues,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">For private
reasons I have been less involved in
NCSG/NPOC for 2018. I have kept abreast of
issues and have long been concerned with
those surrounding organizational and
individual membership. I would like to
comment here from several slightly
different perspectives.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">First, while we
come from the non-commercial
constituencies, we address the concerns of
the non-commercial constituencies. We do
not represent the non-commercial
constituency stakeholder group nor are we
in any formal way accountable to it. We
simply do our best.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">Organizational
members may represent the interests and
concerns of their organization, then again
maybe not. Let me be personal here. When
asked to join NPOC and NCSG I had recently
served as Chair of the Board for Canadian
global health ngo CSIH. This was early in
the ongoing discussions around the Red
Cross domain name issue and concerns about
health relate gTLDs.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">After a couple of
years my NGO effectively untethered me,
leaving me to maintain a watching brief
and reporting back on issues that may
concern them. The rest of the time I could
simple engage in addressing the concerns
of the non-commercial constituency. My ngo
views its membership as part of its “good
works”. I simply do my best and only
report back when a relevant issue emerges.
I do not speak on behalf of my
organizational member. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">It would be
interesting to know how many
organizational members have a formal
obligation to report back to their
organization, and how many pre-clear their
positions on, and participation in, ICANN
policy matters. When that is not the case,
being also an individual member with the
associated extra votes raises troubling
questions. That is why, although I could,
I have not applied for individual
membership.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">To cut this
short, most of the serious ICANN work is
done among us on a consensus basis. What
is important is the dialogue, the
knowledge sharing, and how hard working
members produce useful outputs. Voting is
mainly for selecting among ourselves those
willing to put in even more work in
essentially administrative leadership
positions. Those we elect do not have
extraordinary powers, they have extra
duties. Voting is not about resolving
policy or implementation issues.</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">This leaves me to
wonder why we do not simply have one
membership, and one vote, per member. Even
the large organization small organization
distinction makes little sense. </span></p>
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</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Totally
agree Sam. Why we are
giving organizations more voting weight
than individual members while what they do
more or less is the same at NCSG is a
mystry to me. Sometimes organizations have
one member or employee! Orgs are not
giving bigger dues (we don't charge dues)
they are not contributing more than
individuals do in any other way. </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">We, individually
or representing the express positions of
our organizations, bring evidence, logic,
and context to bear when deliberating
policy and implementation issues. Hard
fought battles still end in consensus.
They do not end because the vote was 51:49
and “ever vote counts”. What is important
is the integrity of the process and the
quality of the consensual outputs. The
scale and scope of membership and voting
rights should reflect this. As they stand
they address things that are really a
non-issue here.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">While I don't
expect this to happen in the short run, I
would support simplifying participation to
one membership and one vote, and returning
our energies to producing ICANN
deliverables. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">Sam L., NPOC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>------------------------------------------------</pre>
<pre>"It is a disgrace to be rich and honoured</pre>
<pre>in an unjust state" -Confucius</pre>
<pre> <span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">邦有道，</span><span style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif">贫且贱焉，耻也。邦无道，富且贵焉，耻也</span></pre>
<pre>------------------------------------------------</pre>
<pre>Visiting Prof, Xi'an Jaiotong-Liverpool Univ, Suzhou, China</pre>
<pre>Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus), Econ, York U., CANADA</pre>
<pre>email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Lanfran@Yorku.ca" target="_blank">Lanfran@Yorku.ca</a> Skype: slanfranco</pre>
<pre>blog: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com" target="_blank">https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com</a></pre>
<pre>Phone: +1 613-476-0429 cell: +1 416-816-2852</pre>
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