<div dir="auto">Indeed thanks to Ayden.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Thanks Ed For the clarification. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">This situation that ICANN is facing is not new in the technlogy field. ITU has been facing the same issues for years and many conflicts and disputes had raised between telecommunication regulatory Authority and Operators.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Most of the time, due to countries sovereignty, ITU could not/cannot make laws that apply to countries.. Instead, it can provide recommendations and guidelines for operational contracts. Regulators are encouraged to enforce ITU standards and norms, and if so, operators are forced to comply. However, a country may not wish to follow an ITU recommandation, standard or norm, and there will be no directly penalty (but market will decide)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">A way to overcome this issue is to request countries' adherence before enforcing a law. EU in Europe, AU in Africa or regional organisations such as ECOWAS can vote laws and directives applicable to countries as per the structure of those organisations (where countries representatives are ministers and political. ...deciding in accordance to their parliament).</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If this such a mecanism can be implemented in ICANN, it would be good. ICANN can also approach those organisations and recommend to include its contractual requirements within Information society laws.</div><div dir="auto"><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">Regards<br>@__f_f__<br><br>PhD Candidate, Universität der Bundeswehr München<br>Computer Security | Internet of Things<br><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/farellf">https://www.linkedin.com/in/farellf</a><br>________________________________.<br>Mail sent from my mobile phone. Excuse for brievety.</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">Le 29 mai 2017 21:38, "Edward Morris" <<a href="mailto:egmorris1@toast.net">egmorris1@toast.net</a>> a écrit :<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-family:'Lucida Sans Unicode','Lucida Grande',Sans-Serif;font-size:14px"><div>Hi Ayden,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thank you so much for organising the ideation workshop today. It's the type of thing I believe we need to do more of going forward as public comments become more complicated and the NCSG becomes more diverse. I'm sorry I had conflicting commitments today ( a Bank Holiday in my part of the world) and look forward to listening to the recording and/or reading the transcript.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In response to your request for input, let me start with one basic rule of contract law, both in the common law and civil law traditions: a contractual clause that is against the law is unenforceable in the jurisdiction in which it is illegal. So ICANN could contractually require Registrars to yearly have their employees take off their clothes, walk in the middle of the closest three lane highway and bow in the direction of ICANN headquarters chanting "Goran is God", but if that clause violated local laws concerning public nudity, traffic laws and blasphemy it would not be enforceable.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Similarly, if ICANN were to insert into contracts contractual obligations that would cause any party to violate a law, such as ones related to privacy and data protection, those contractual clauses would be unenforceable and generally would be severed from the contract without affecting either parties unrelated contractual obligations (this is a broad generalisation; many exceptions do apply). That said, we do want clarity in contracts, obligations and commitments should be known, legal and enforceable (the later pertaining the the reason the contract exists). It's a good idea to deal with this issue up front.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The proposal at hand, as I understand it, is nonsensical and a bit daft. Only a fool would go to a government agency and say "Hi guys, I just signed a contract that commits me to doing lots of illegal stuff. What do you think about it?". Not a good idea. Governments have guns and prisons: it's generally not a good idea to tell them you're contractually obliged to break their law.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In many commercial contracts there are severability clauses attached to arbitration agreements. For example, I was once involved in an import transaction concerning several items, one of which we discovered violated an obscure E.U. prohibition. We couldn't import it. That impacted the pricing of the entire agreement. We had an arbitration clause, though, in the contract so we went into an arbitration proceeding with the exporter and the situation was resolved.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I'd suggest we consider something smilier here. Here's a proposal to kick around:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>1. If a Register or Registrar believes that any part of a contract it is obliged to sign with ICANN in order to maintain its core business operations is against the law in any jurisdiction in which it operates, that company shall obtain a legal opinion from any entity licensed to practice law within the jurisdiction involved stating same, giving precise reasons for that opinion, and send it to ICANN;</div>
<div> </div>
<div>2. ICANN shall evaluate the submitted claim and: 1. either agree with it, thus nullifying the other parties obligation to perform that part of the contract, or 2. disagree with it, in which case</div>
<div> </div>
<div>3. the matter shall be referred directly to an Independent Review Panel, per §4.3 of ICANN's Bylaws. I would note that said Bylaws section would have to be amended to allow for this process to occur. This arbitration would have to be binding. The IRP would, thus, make the final decision. An alternative would be to send the dispute to an international arbitrator not connected in any way with the ICANN IRP.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Hope this is helpful.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Kind Regards,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ed Morris</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
<div><span style="font-family:tahoma,arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><b>From</b>: "Ayden Férdeline" <<a href="mailto:icann@FERDELINE.COM" target="_blank">icann@FERDELINE.COM</a>><br>
<b>Sent</b>: Monday, May 29, 2017 8:41 PM<br>
<b>To</b>: <a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU" target="_blank">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject</b>: Re: NCSG Ideation Workshop on Revised ICANN Procedure for Handling WHOIS Conflicts with Privacy Law on Monday 29 May 2017 at 13:00 UTC.</span>
<div> </div>
<div>Thanks to all who joined this ideation workshop today. I hope you found it useful. Just to bring a conversation to the list that we had briefly at the end of the call, I said something along the lines of, surely mitigating contractual clauses that run contrary to local laws is something that happens from time to time in other sectors? I asked how, outside of CANN, these issues would be handled. If anyone has an answer to this, I would be curious to hear it, as I think it might help us come up with better solutions in our comment on the proposed alteration to the WHOIS Conflicts with Privacy Law procedure.<br>
<br>
Thank you, Ayden </div>
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<div> </div>
<blockquote class="m_6167989536074640232protonmail_quote" type="cite">
<div>-------- Original Message --------</div>
<div>Subject: Attendance & Recording: NCSG Ideation Workshop on Revised ICANN Procedure for Handling WHOIS Conflicts with Privacy Law on Monday 29 May 2017 at 13:00 UTC.</div>
<div>Local Time: May 29, 2017 4:48 PM</div>
<div>UTC Time: May 29, 2017 3:48 PM</div>
<div>From: <a href="mailto:maryam.bakoshi@ICANN.ORG" target="_blank">maryam.bakoshi@ICANN.ORG</a></div>
<div>To: <a href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU" target="_blank">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div class="m_6167989536074640232WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Dear all,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Please find attendance and recording of the <b>NCSG Ideation Workshop on Revised ICANN Procedure for Handling WHOIS Conflicts with Privacy Law on Monday 29 May 2017 at 13:00 UTC.</b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Transcript would be posted when it becomes available.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Attendance:</span></b><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> Dina Solveig Jalkanen, Farell Folly, Farzaneh Badii, Joan Kerr, Julf Helsingius, Rafik Dammak, David Cake, Bruna Santos, Louise Marie Hurel, Andreea Rusu, Stephanie Perrin, James Gannon, Arshad Mohammed</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Staff: </span></b><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Maryam Bakoshi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Mp3: <a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mailer.samanage.com_wf_click-3Fupn-3DBicbgE3FNUxHuHwOPdgXp7PxnHhpBITaBzfgAxdndi9IoZ8RzsFfvLRUW7puduYyT3QqyejmqLebLO8-2D2FaBYwOa7n9S-2D2BNF4iZTNJEAmb6p18OioHij8yTI6RHXBNl4dqO-5FFiroU9WATfGGQpGIbRb8NkCMVsuIUf2Oa7q-2D2B6QPGPd0P9ACvn3Y7Ub4pcSRvAWpR4eEu9NGmxpUPeW0JVeMqcxBkC1ajwg6Efba9JnrHuvaGkytYht-2D2BcRzRzRdO6GDE510ktfNBk9SsN-2D2BN0dEU5DFF3QEQ5iwAN6-2D2B-2D2BxBtC6uhITOohlogAogeBf50rZYVN91efCNDdqf2xJtlfeMsjjuK7MqqSHCN6imx8jpgEzEydwcWqu-2D2BfjdaIzcckkn6XuQWr9PFm7U90oJy2EKP0b8VEevVh0x8p-2D2BKUGwiGAR5YKKqLoMtb2KmjIKAv2GtOKlGlUXYzuHJZYFA8p6EAgsX8K59qIN97A-2D2B88klCmbFWwAVYZNdGwmN5AflCwwbw6NFcKtIUDZEy6Lw5btFQ2HbMuhg3tIvvNf2xPuI-2D2BbF0jj4KPbiTMkDQoUEMlpiFnR1mQ0C7ClpRgrbKF96ktBf27YH80P2k3ruvStINNE-2D2BJSGkyXRz48s4QkPA9MgZkY0wOBQ&d=DwMFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=1A9IIOkJia11FXDmJ1R4Jn7wGT4ExHiVuBF89mvNt_Q&m=vQbmbaWSwX_9c2WsUbHUdgoNAN-3QLL6u6EsuRVN9og&s=3WQwmPdBmgaf7JyLvtjt15jOJd_T2lZfr2PGYUVvi74&e=" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank"> https://audio.icann.org/gnso/<wbr>whois-conflicts-privacy-law-<wbr>ncsg-29may17-en.mp3[mailer.<wbr>samanage.com]</a> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">AC Chat:</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Nathalie Peregrine: Welcome all, to the NCSG Ideation Workshop on Revised ICANN Procedure for Handling WHOIS Conflicts with Privacy Law on Monday 29 May 2017 at 13:00 UTC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Ayden Férdeline: Hi all, thanks for coming today</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farell FOLLY (africa 2.0): ok it works</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Ayden Férdeline: Here is a link to our draft comment, it isn't necessary to open the file just yet but we might look at it later. <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lA-O2jiPv5JMoCYpG5HD0S_5O3yaiYkoRvfll3YsTX4/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/<wbr>document/d/1lA-<wbr>O2jiPv5JMoCYpG5HD0S_<wbr>5O3yaiYkoRvfll3YsTX4/edit?usp=<wbr>sharing</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Joan Kerr: Hello Everyone</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Ayden Férdeline: thanks for joining the call!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farell FOLLY (africa 2.0): hello Joan</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Joan Kerr: Hi Farell. How are you</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Ayden Férdeline: We will start in 3 minutes</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Louise Marie Hurel: Hi everyone!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Andreea Rusu: Hello everyone!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: apologies for being late</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Bruna Santos: hello, everyone!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: Thanks for doing all the preparation for this Ayden and all!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Louise Marie Hurel: +1 Stephanie</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farzaneh Badii: yes</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Louise Marie Hurel: yes</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farzaneh Badii: we can hear you</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farzaneh Badii: I'd say we have a technical definition of public comment, which is publicly commenting as a group or an individual on a policy document</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Dina Solveig Jalkanen: On an entire document or smaller recent alterations to one.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Louise Marie Hurel: yes</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Dina Solveig Jalkanen: Do all issues requesting a public comment receive one? If not, what is the percentage of those that go uncommented?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">James Gannon: All are put out for comment, most would recienve at least one</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Rafik: @Dina some topics revieves few comments. no necessarily because they are not relevant but because there are several in same time and people end up prioritizing...</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Dina Solveig Jalkanen: Working group is free to disregard the contents of a comment?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">James Gannon: There is no obligation to incorporate every comment no. But to consdider them yes</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">James Gannon: *consider</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Rafik: @Dina staff summarize the comments , then working group review the comments, try to respond to them but not incorporating everythin</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">David Cake: Whois we are talking about the existing registration data service</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Dina Solveig Jalkanen: lookup, but I think we should hear details from ICANN :)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">David Cake: rather than the protocol by which it is currently delivered</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Dina Solveig Jalkanen: Rafik, thank you, that makes sense</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">James Gannon: "David Yes important distinction</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: Consideration of comments, in my view, is much less rigorous than it is in some regulatory settings. I used to work on public comments that the Department of Communications/Industry has to publish in the federal register. one had to be very scrupulous in how those comments were disposed of, a but of course in that milieu there is a Minister responsbile to a parliament. ICANN is different, on occasion we have had our comments barely noted.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">James Gannon: <a href="https://whois.icann.org/en/primer" target="_blank">https://whois.icann.org/en/<wbr>primer</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">James Gannon: WHOIS is 3 things</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">James Gannon: The information that is collected at the time of registration of a domain name or IP numbering resource and subsequently made available via the WHOIS Service, and potentially updated throughout the life of the resource;The WHOIS Protocol itself, which is defined in RFC 3912; orThe WHOIS Services that provide public access to domain name registration information typically via applications that implement the WHOIS protocol or a web-based interfac</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Julf Helsingius (NCPH NCA): There are two very different issues - the access protocol and the actual data</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Dina Solveig Jalkanen: Could you repeat the question? (bad connection)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farzaneh Badii: oh now that I have Tapani's phone number from this WHOIS fIorm Ican call him up now and ask him to attend this call.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: Sorry I had to step away and take a call.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Julf Helsingius (NCPH NCA): I guess we have to separate whois information about a single individual, and information about an organisation</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">James Gannon: Depends on the country Julf</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Julf Helsingius (NCPH NCA): sure</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: It is very awkward to do that although technically the difference is important under data protection law</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Julf Helsingius (NCPH NCA): but pretty much everything always depends on the country :)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: My own policy position, and one we advanced in the discussions on privacy proxy services (the PPSAI pdp) is that we should avoid trying to determine who is an individual and who is a company, although if a company wishes to declare itself they are welcome</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Bruna Santos: Brazil does not have a privacy law yet. There are discussions in both at the lower house and at the senate. But we have not yet come to a conclusion regarding the different proposals</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: In most nations, the ability to protect groups depends on the constitution. More difficult that trying to interpret those rights under DP law</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Louise Marie Hurel: We have the Brazilian Internet Bill of Rights as a legal mechanism that actually upholds privacy as one of the guiding principles to Internet policy, development and governance -- also adding to the principle outlined in our Constitution. However, we are currently debating a specific framework for privacy and data protection.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Louise Marie Hurel: Several proposals as Bruna said</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farell FOLLY (africa 2.0): @stephanie but most of the time as of whois registration data, even company data will contain indiindividuals information</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Dina Solveig Jalkanen: It doesn't.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Bruna Santos: For example, the concept of personal data is outlined by the Access to Information bill!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Louise Marie Hurel: So our national panorama is one of comepting understandings so as to what are the interests that are guiding privacy law</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Bruna Santos: and jurisprudence</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">James Gannon: @Ayden IMportant to note that that will be changing under PPSAI implementaion</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Julf Helsingius (NCPH NCA): Ayden - isn't that more an issue of transparency rather than an issue of existence of proxy services?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Joan Kerr: The Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (PIPEDA) is federal legislation passed in 2001 and fully implemented on January 1, 2004. While some provinces have passed their own privacy legislation, Ontario has not, so the federal legislation applies here.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Rafik: Tunisia has DP law to be updated since parliament just voted to ratify the convention 108</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">David Cake: there is a national privacy act in Australia. it puts obligations on companies.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">James Gannon: I do belive that Stephanie in fact wrote a good chunk of PIPEDA =)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">David Cake: but discussion about legal changes such as a privacy tort are ongoing. waiting for data breach legislation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Bruna Santos: A curiosity is that when Marco Civil was written, the Idea of having privacy as one of the guiding principles to Internet policy, development and governance was to reinforce the need of an specific framework that the government was working on. (in a very soft power way)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Bruna Santos: This Government proposal has been sent to the Senate and the debate now is between proposals (one from a Senator that is now in our Ministry of foreign affairs and the one that the government drafted)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">James Gannon: Ireland has a Data Protection Act in line with the EU Directives</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Joan Kerr: @Stephanie, we have always thought PIPEDA covered Ontarions\</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: I think it sounds like the Brazilian framework idea is similar to what we were trying to do in Canada. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Ayden Férdeline: <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lA-O2jiPv5JMoCYpG5HD0S_5O3yaiYkoRvfll3YsTX4/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/<wbr>document/d/1lA-<wbr>O2jiPv5JMoCYpG5HD0S_<wbr>5O3yaiYkoRvfll3YsTX4/edit?usp=<wbr>sharing</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: We had quite a difficult debate in Canada about the scope of what the federal government ought to be doing</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Bruna Santos: Yes, Stephanie, I see some similarities in both processes</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: I spent quite a few years looking at other federal states, did not look at Brazil because of my language issues....but it is interesting how federal states have intervened. US used their powers in interstate commerce to stop racial discrimination, a pretty creative use of the power that made our efforts look pretty easy in comparison.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Bruna Santos: I believe in Brazil, both Marco Civil and the Personal Data draft bill have been an effort of the Federal Government against some terrible regulation attempts of both the Senate and the Lower House.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: In Canada we developed a standard for privacy protection first, through the Canadian Standards Association. We attempted then to take that managment standard to the ISO in order to have it form the basis for an international management standard, but were blocked by the US. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: in the meantime, we legislated compliance to that standard. There were many reasons for choosing a standards based approach (lawyers hate it) which I could go on and on about, if you are interested ....</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Bruna Santos: yes, please! Im interested on the subject! Mainly because I have followed a part of the drafting process while at the government</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: Well lets take this offline....It might be a option for you if you are interested. Solves trade discrimination issues because compliance with it can be indepently audited without the need for regulation....</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Bruna Santos: definitely!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farell FOLLY (africa 2.0): what the trigger is in this context?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: The new trigger is a letter from a nationally respected law firm.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: FOrmerly, it was just a letter from a DPA with the authority to sanction (and not all dpas have that power, some have to take you to a tribunal or a court) telling you that you were breaking the law</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farzaneh Badii: so it's now law firms enforcing the law?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Joan Kerr: Who has the ultimate authority to enforce</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farell FOLLY (africa 2.0): thanks Stéphanie</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: TBH, I was so disgusted at the end of this I wrote my dissent and walked away. In order to participate in drafting this comment, I will have to go over the precise wording that we came up with in the final new trigger. the REgistrars said it would not work, they had an effort to block it at the GNSO, but then abandoned that and said yes we will pass it in return for starting a new,more broadly scoped cttee this fall. Just what we need, says I, another totally frustrating committee.....</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farell FOLLY (africa 2.0): well</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: I would say go to the website of the WHOIS conflicts with law....</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: listen to a couple of the transcripts....</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: we argued over the same issues for weeks on end, so I would say random selection ought to take you to some of the debate pretty quickly.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: Privacy impact assessment, privacy policy, legal risk assessement.....</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: Normally, you don't force the regulated bodies to independently come up with what amounts to a legal risk assessment individually.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: Note that if one Irish registrar gets a waiver, it did not mean that all the others automatically got one, even though it was the same law and contract</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Dina Solveig Jalkanen: Stephanie, it was interesting to read your comments, thanks!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Louise Marie Hurel: Thank you all</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Rafik: thnks Ayden</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Louise Marie Hurel: Thanks Ayden</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farzaneh Badii: thanks a lot Ayden</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Stephanie Perrin: Thanks Ayden, great approach to doing comments!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Joan Kerr: Thanks Ayden, All</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Maryam Bakoshi: Thanks all, good bye</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)">Farell FOLLY (africa 2.0): thanks well done</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(0,32,96)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(31,78,121)">Many thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(31,78,121)">-- </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(31,78,121)">Maryam Bakoshi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(31,78,121)">Secretariat Support – NCSG/NCUC/NPOC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(31,78,121)">Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(31,78,121)">S: maryam.bakoshi.icann</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="m_6167989536074640232colour" style="color:rgb(31,78,121)">T: <a href="tel:+44%207737%20698036" value="+447737698036" target="_blank">+44 7737698036</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div> </div>
</div></span>
</blockquote></div></div>