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<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I am so sorry to be
late in joining this conversation, as I am the councilor who,
as Ed has stated, criticised the draft that he had developed
largely with Jennifer Standiford. I was driving all day from
Toronto to Ottawa, so was unable to comment earlier. Let me
clarify a few things.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">1. I did not join
this Council drafting group even though I have had quite a bit
of experience in dealing with harassment policies in my recent
30 years working for the Canadian government. There were already
4/6 of our NCSG councilors on that team, we need to practice
what we preach and avoid piling on. When I saw the draft
policy that Ed has mentioned in his opening paragraphs, I
asked that the NCSG discuss our position at our policy meeting
April 14th. I raised my objections to the draft moving forward
in the Council meeting (also April 14th, transcript here
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar">http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar</a>). </font></font><font
size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">
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charset=utf-8">
I do think we need to discuss this among our members before we
send something to Council. I also commented extensively on
the document on April 17th, on the GNSO council list as requested
by the Chair (to all of us). Those interested in checking the
debates on this matter can find the emails back and forth on
the GNSO Council site here:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/council/mail7.html">http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/council/mail7.html</a>.
The original post with proposed letter and policy was sent by
James Bladel April 4th, I believe.<br>
</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">2. I did indeed say
that I thought we needed a privacy policy first, but not
because I do not agree that a harassment policy would be a great
thing to have. We already had a problem in hand, in that
until ICANN develops a decent privacy policy, there is no real
expectation of privacy in the testimony that might be given in
a case. The ombudsman conducts his investigations in
confidence, and respects the privacy of complainants, but
there is nothing that can be done if one or another party
chooses to release sensitive personal information. A privacy
policy needs to exist, so that expectations can be set
realistically, particularly for potential witnesses who may
suffer repercussions for coming forward. In my years of
working as a Privacy Coordinator in the federal government in
Canada, I found that this tension between the rights of the
accused, the protection of the accuser and witnesses, and the
desire for an open justice system is one of the thorniest
problems to solve in any institution. ICANN is an even trickier
one, given its voluntary multi-stakeholder modeI, global
reach, and changing jurisdictions. In my view it is quite
complex.<br>
</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">I was part of a group
of Privacy Coordinators (the government employees tasked with
implementing freedom of information and privacy law in Canada)
who created a report to Parliament human resources matters
early in my career, in 1987. I wish I could say we have fixed
it in Canada, or that there is a terrific model to copy
anywhere. There is not much likelihood of protecting
testimony in the event of a subpoena in many jurisdictions,
and we should let participants in this process be well aware
of that. All kinds of sensitive information can come out
during an investigation, such as previous allegations or
criminal charges, a history of a complainant making many
complaints, previous sexual assault to the victim or other
traumatic stress, sexual preferences, medical history
including mental illness etc etc. A privacy policy at ICANN
would have a section devoted to this policy, making it clear
what reasonable guarantees of confidentiality we could offer
(or not). Those guarantees ought to be minimal in my view,
unless a lawyer specializing in HR law assures me otherwise.
I am, as I have often said, not a lawyer, but I have worked in
the area of privacy law from practically every angle for many
years. Anyone who has worked in this area, in my experience
at least, has seen reputations and careers destroyed by both
abuse, and false allegations. We must set up a system that is
fair and does not re-victimize the victim, or penalize
witnesses for doing the right thing and coming forward. <br>
</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">3. I had suggested
looking at the reference materials that I am most familiar
with, the Canadian government ones, but this was dismissed as
not relevant. Definitions and procedures in my view are very
relevant, as it is in the implementation of harassment
policies that great care must be taken. These tools are
available here:</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/psm-fpfm/healthy-sain/prh/index-eng.asp">http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/psm-fpfm/healthy-sain/prh/index-eng.asp</a>.
(also available in french)<br>
</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">It is true that ICANN
is not a government organization. Most harassment policies
are developed in the employment context, so the closest model
which we could find, in the subsequent discussion by NCSG
members, was the recent conference policy implemented by the
IETF, (thanks to Avri Doria for the suggestion) well worth
examining and following closely. We as a group of people
participating at ICANN hardly fit the mold of a California
corporation, either, in my opinion, so we should proceed carefully
and figure out the implementation in such a way that this new
tool, designed to make us all more comfortable and able to
participate without discrimination and abuse, is not used
against us, to stifle dissent. As proponents of free speech,
accountability, human rights, an open Internet, and privacy
for registrant data among other things, we are often the voice
of dissent. Just a note of caution. In my view the draft
policy that Ed has described was too wide in scope, and might
easily be used against those who disagree and raise important
issues. I have participated on quite a few working groups now
in my 3.5 years at ICANN. The atmosphere can be quite
contentious, it is not for the faint of heart, and some of our
best spokespeople can be quite aggressive when they need to
be. We are not going to change that atmosphere overnight, in
my view, so we must be prepared to approach the matter of improving
behaviour step by step. I think only a small portion of that
atmosphere amounts to gender bias, although I do agree that it
appears to exist. However, I am older than most, so it could
be age bias, and I am a very aggressive proponent of privacy
rights and following proper criminal procedure for law enforcement,
so I could easily have my contributions ignored for those
reasons, not gender bias. <span class="moz-smiley-s1"><span>:-)</span></span><br>
</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">4. One of the issues
that we have to think about very carefully, is what penalties
should be imposed on offenders. In my view ICANN has a
virtual monopoly on the management of DNS policy. Banning
individuals from meetings or participation might be challenged
as anti-competitive or discriminatory behaviour; obviously
there is a gradient here but we must be mindful that unlike
firing someone from a job (where they might go and work for another
company the next day) getting fired from ICANN means not being
able to participate in the discussion of DNS policy and procedures.
Given that we are all volunteers even if working for
organizations, and are not "members" of ICANN, there are not
many other sanctions available, short of fines or community
service. Worth thinking about in my opinion. <br>
</font></font></p>
<p><font size="+1"><font face="Lucida Grande">5. In closing I would
like to remind NCSG folks that the Ombudsman comes to every
meeting, and his door is open. He will hear complaints, and
until such time as the current draft acceptable behaviour policy
is accepted, and the proposed expert is hired to figure out
how to implement this better, we can continue to use his
office. Since most of the harassment issues that I have heard
about fall well short of criminal behaviour, it might be wise
to start there. I have taken the liberty of putting him in
cc, for the benefit of those attending the conference who
might wish to use the official channels we have at the
moment. Most folks attending the meeting are already starting
to head to the airport. The current acceptable behaviour
standards can be found here:</font></font></p>
<p>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<a
href="https://meetings.icann.org/sites/default/files/icann-standards_of_behavior-jul14.pdf"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://meetings.icann.org/sites/default/files/icann-standards_of_behavior-jul14.pdf">https://meetings.icann.org/sites/default/files/icann-standards_of_behavior-jul14.pdf</a></a></p>
<font size="+1">These standards have been much criticized recently,
but they can capture most inappropriate conduct in my view, while
we develop a more fulsome policy and training materials.<br>
<br>
Please let us try to work together constructively, and consult one
another thoroughly so that we are not blindsided on these very
important issues. Thanks to all those who have commented on this
important issue! As you may have guessed, I strongly support
Robin's and Milton's remarks below.<br>
<br>
Stephanie Perrin<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2016-06-24 14:50, Robin Gross wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:204CB8F1-0675-450A-A341-6D4186E2C723@ipjustice.org"
type="cite">
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<div class="">While this lone effort to save the women may have
been well-intentioned, I am also concerned that it will end up
being counter productive. Let’s not become defensive about
concerns, but rather address them in more of a dialogue among
the impacted parties. Of course none of us are in favor of
harassment, but I also don’t think we need to go off on a one
man campaign. Let’s try to work productively together with
guidance from the impacted parties leading the effort on what
changes are needed and how best to handle situations when they
arise. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks,</div>
<div class="">Robin</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jun 24, 2016, at 9:34 AM, Tatiana Tropina
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tatiana.tropina@gmail.com" class="">tatiana.tropina@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<p dir="ltr" class="">Hi all, <br class="">
I fully support Milton's email. Demanding strong action
has to come together with strong and thorough safeguards.
I don't want to be in the atmosphere of fear and
intimidation. Vague definitions, unclear rules and off the
cuff solutions are as dangerous as the problem itself. <br
class="">
Best<br class="">
Tatiana </p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 24 Jun 2016 18:15, "Edward
Morris" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:egmorris1@toast.net" class="">egmorris1@toast.net</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution" class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif;font-size:12px" class="">
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">Milton,</span></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">I'm
not going to get involved in juvenile name calling
and personal attacks. All quotes in may post are
accurate and taken from the Council list. As for
your accusation of "grandstanding" and chest
beating...</span></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">I've
spent hours on the telephone with officials
and organisations in Finland. I have learned
law, procedure and established personal
contacts that will enable me to help those who
feel harmed and aggrieved. If you want to call
that grandstanding go ahead. I call it getting off
my rear end and solving a problem I see and have
experienced.</span></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">We
are not going to have as strong an NCSG team
in Helsinki that we would otherwise have had
because there are women who will no longer come to
these meetings. That bothers me. I'm told the tech
community is always sexist, as if that is an
excuse. Well, you've been here for years Milton
and talking to women who have been here a long
time as well they tell me there have always been
problems of this nature. I have no way of knowing
whether they are telling me the truth or not.</span></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">What
I do know is what I've experienced: the most
paternalistic sexist environment I
have encountered anywhere in my professional life.
I look forward to working with you and others to
create policy to fix this. It should have
been done years ago by those who have been there
all these years.</span></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">In
the interim, I asm going to ensure that those who
feel aggrieved are able to access the resources
that our host countries have established to assist
them. One of the advantage predators have is the
victims at meetings like ICANN are often in a
foreign country and don't know where to turn. It's
a real problem, one I've witnessed first hand at
ICANN meetings in Singapore and Morocco. I'm
doing everything I can to take away this predator
advantage and ensure that ALL conference attendees
have access to the resources set up to help them
by the state and civil society in the Republic of
Finland. Each attendee is deserved to feel safe in
his or her body and to be treated respectfully and
professionally.</span></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">I'm
sorry you don't seem to approve of my actions,
Milton. Not much I can do about that. I've seen
too many tears and heard too many stories. If I
can help one person while ICANN is getting it's
act together it will be worth the condemnation of
the masses.</span></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">Respectfully,</span></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:14px" class="">Ed
Morris</span></div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<hr class="" align="center" size="2" width="100%">
<div class=""><span
style="font-family:tahoma,arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"
class=""><b class="">From</b>: "Mueller, Milton L"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:milton@GATECH.EDU" target="_blank"
class="">milton@GATECH.EDU</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Sent</b>: Friday, June 24, 2016 3:56
PM<br class="">
<b class="">To</b>: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU"
target="_blank" class="">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br
class="">
<b class="">Subject</b>: Re: Harassment and
Helsinki</span>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
class="">Ed</span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"
class="">one of your Councilors who
stated “it is my view that we need a
privacy policy more than a harassment
policy “. I could not disagree more
strongly with that statement. </span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
class="">MM: That does not strike me as
an accurate statement. My understanding
is that there were concerns about how
personal information about accusations
is handled. According to an approved
NCUC statement, we need to be as
concerned about the rights of the
falsely accused as we are about the
victim of SH, because of course we all
know, or should know, that the
boundaries are not always clear and that
people can manipulate or misuse SH
charges just as SH abusers can
manipulate others in a conference
setting. </span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
class="">MM: I’d like to hear more about
those details, and less about how
strongly you are against SH, Ed. Last
time I looked there were no defenders or
SH on this list. We need to work
together on this issue and not
grandstand – one of the most poisonous
things about these kinds of issues is
that it allows people to beat their
chests and proclaim how much they are
against “bad things” (sexual harassment,
terrorism, child porn, you name it)
while obscuring the details about what
rights people have and what procedures
are justified in response. </span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
class="">(I am reminded of the
Republican primary debates, where the
candidates vied with each other to say
how much they were against ISIS, and how
“strong” should be the measures we take
against it, but seem to have overlooked
any realistic cause-effect relationship
between the actions proposed and the
factors that have given rise to ISIS in
the region – including the Iraq war they
all supported. But I digress…) </span></p>
<div class=""><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
class=""> </span><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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