<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Bill,<br>
<br>
The core issue for me is "Who is minding the kitchen at home?". I
have worked for years (decades) in other areas where the
stakeholders try to deal with domestic/national issues by only
engaging in struggles on the global stage. That is a very limited
strategy, and even more so here. Internet Citizenship will
require vigilance and active participation "at home". Unless one
engages in those governance struggles at home, there will be
limited success with governance issues in multilateral
organizations, and even less at home. It may feel good to speak on
a global stage, but if one's own government is not listening it is
of limited impact. <br>
<br>
The Internet governance table needs three multistakeholder
engagement legs: 1. within ICANN; 2. within the multilateral
venues; 3. within the national venues. With (or without) the IANA
Transition the ICANN remit will be more clearly delineated by
internal and external forces. There will be a smaller and more
compact ICANN. What happens at multilateral venues depends on what
is happening at national levels. Except in the case of very
repressive regimes, there need to be struggles around the creation
of new/better multistakeholder Internet governance processes
within countries. Without that there will be little progress at
the multilateral level. <br>
<br>
As for the claim of "undesirable on some grounds or another", in
part that reflects: (a) special interest concerns about the
balance of power, but it also reflects: (b) ambiguity about the
relationship between multistakeholder representation and
democratic processes. The first is mainly a power struggle but the
second is a serious issue that requires deeper exploration beyond
what ever policy issues are at hand. <br>
<br>
Sam L. <br>
<br>
<font color="#660000"><i>On 6/6/2016 9:19 AM, William Drake wrote:</i><i><br>
</i></font></div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CEE33932-60A1-4504-B0EF-F7E9E8CB4EBC@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<font color="#660000"><i>Sam you don’t sound one key to me. But
your comment does point to one small matter…many of the folks
have insisted that </i></font>
<div class=""><font color="#660000"><i><br class="">
</i></font></div>
<div class=""><font color="#660000"><i>a] ICANN stick to a narrow
construction of its mandate and role and that a big chunk of
what governments and other stakeholders around the world
care about is hence to be dealt with ‘somewhere else;’ </i></font></div>
<div class=""><font color="#660000"><i>b] every effort to create a
new multistakeholder processes that could maybe grow to help
be that somewhere else has been undesirable on some grounds
or another; </i></font></div>
<div class=""><font color="#660000"><i>c] every effort to create a
new intergovernmental processes that could maybe grow to
help be that somewhere else has been undesirable on some
grounds or another.</i></font></div>
<div class=""><font color="#660000"><i><br class="">
</i></font></div>
<div class=""><font color="#660000"><i>Which leaves us back with
the same discussions from 2330-2005 replaying over and over
and many G77 governments unhappy and China and the ITU and
others working to fill perceive voids etc. Some believe
that industrialized country governments and business can
just keep saying nothing is needed other than extant
international/transnational arrangements and national
policies, but to other ears this just sounds like a control
game. We’ll see how long this status quo can be maintained.</i></font></div>
<div class=""><font color="#660000"><i><br class="">
</i></font></div>
<div class=""><font color="#660000"><i>Bill</i><i><br class="">
</i></font>
<div class=""><font color="#660000"><i> </i></font>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><font color="#cc0000" size="-1">On Jun
6, 2016, at 14:39, Sam Lanfranco <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Lanfran@yorku.ca" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lanfran@yorku.ca">Lanfran@yorku.ca</a></a>>
wrote:</font></div>
<font color="#cc0000" size="-1"><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</font>
<div class=""><font color="#cc0000" size="-1"> </font>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type" class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><font
color="#cc0000" size="-1"> </font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font color="#cc0000"
size="-1">I may sound like a piano with one
key in re-making the following (possibly
unpopular) observation:<br class="">
<br class="">
The Internet ecosystem has matured over the
past 15 years and more and more stakeholders,
including nation states, have acquired a
deeper realization of what their stakes are in
the boarder Internet ecosystem. Much of that
territory is outside ICANN's remit and
presents them with governance issues. There is
no doubt that a sort of Internet ecosystem
"enclosure movement" is coming, with elements
national and multilateral ecosystem governance
on the horizon. Within this there is a
confusion around what is, and what is not,
within ICANN's DNS remit. So long as
stakeholders outside ICANN do not understand
the scope and limits of ICANN's remit there
will be confusion on the part of nation states
and other stakeholder constituencies as they
operate in their individual interest and the
public interest. This increases the risks of
working at cross purposes where there should
be collaboration. Are there any lessons in
this confusion? I think so.<br class="">
<br class="">
</font>
<ul class="">
<li class=""><font color="#cc0000" size="-1">As
ICANN stakeholders work hard and in
earnest on issues within ICANN's remit,
more attention must be paid to helping
others understand the limits of ICANN's
remit, and not just to understand better
what ICANN does within its remit. <br
class="">
</font> </li>
<li class=""><font color="#cc0000" size="-1">We
have to help stakeholders within ICANN and
within the wider Internet ecosystem
(including ICANN) that it is important to
help shape and participate in those
governance processes that reside beyond
ICANN's remit. </font></li>
</ul>
<font color="#cc0000" size="-1"> Sam L. <br
class="">
</font><br class="">
<font class="" color="#cc0000">On 6/6/2016 5:07
AM, William Drake wrote:</font><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:FAA87861-D349-4EC5-8BE8-4308D28172DF@gmail.com"
type="cite" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class="">
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><font class="" color="#663300">On
Jun 6, 2016, at 11:00, Kleinwächter,
Wolfgang <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de"
class="">wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</a>>
wrote:</font></div>
<font class="" color="#663300"><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</font>
<div class=""><font class="" color="#663300"><span
style="font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
float: none; display: inline
!important;" class="">My understanding
is that UNDESA has no bad intentions
or does not plan a "conspiracy"
against the IGF. They are just doing
their "business as usual". And they
have not yet understood that the 21st
century is different from the 20th
century. They have not yet understood
that the multistakeholder model is not
based on the principle of national
sovereignty of UN member states but on
principles like openess, transparency,
equal Access for all governmental and
non-governmental stakeholderrs, bottom
up policy development, rough consenus
and running code.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;"
class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;"
class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap:
break-word;" class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap:
break-word;" class=""><font class=""
color="#cc0000">I <i class="">want</i>
to believe this interpretation and
wish there were visible data points
supporting it.</font></div>
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap:
break-word;" class=""><font class=""
color="#cc0000"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div style="letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap:
break-word;" class=""><font class=""
color="#cc0000">Bill</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<font class="" color="#cc0000"> </font></blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br
class="">
*************************************************************<br
class="">
William J. Drake<br class="">
International Fellow & Lecturer<br class="">
Media Change & Innovation Division, IPMZ<br
class="">
University of Zurich, Switzerland<br class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:william.drake@uzh.ch" class="">william.drake@uzh.ch</a> (direct), <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wjdrake@gmail.com" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wjdrake@gmail.com">wjdrake@gmail.com</a></a> (lists),<br
class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.williamdrake.org" class="">www.williamdrake.org</a><br
class="">
<i class="">The Working Group on Internet
Governance - 10th Anniversary Reflections</i><br
class="">
New book at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://amzn.to/22hWZxC" class="">http://amzn.to/22hWZxC</a><br
class="">
*************************************************************</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
------------------------------------------------
"It is a disgrace to be rich and honoured
in an unjust state" -Confucius
邦有道，贫且贱焉，耻也。邦无道，富且贵焉，耻也
------------------------------------------------
Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus & Senior Scholar)
Econ, York U., Toronto, Ontario, CANADA - M3J 1P3
email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lanfran@Yorku.ca">Lanfran@Yorku.ca</a> Skype: slanfranco
blog: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://samlanfranco.blogspot.com">http://samlanfranco.blogspot.com</a>
Phone: +1 613-476-0429 cell: +1 416-816-2852</pre>
</body>
</html>