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Perhaps a note about how APEC deals with this might be helpful?
Dangerous turf....<br>
cheers stephanie<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2016-04-13 8:00, Edward Morris
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:216f5478b82f40d4a7a68d957103e7d9@toast.net"
type="cite">
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<div>Hi Ayden.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thank you very much for your hard work on this. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Is there some place in the document we can either clarify,
define, add to or modify the word 'state'.?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Quick example: Taiwan is represented in the GAC. I and 22
countries of the world, including Panama, for example,
consider Taiwan to be a state. Yet, the United Nations does
not. If we create further regions based upon culture and Asia
is divided into multiple groups it is conceivable that Taiwan
would automatically be lumped i with Chins where the criteria
used in assignment would not normally generate that outcome.
There are other examples of this, in the Middle East being
another.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thanks for considering how and where this could fit ion to
our comment.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Kind Regards,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ed Mporris </div>
<div> </div>
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<div><span style="font-family: tahoma,arial,sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt;"><b>From</b>: "Ayden Férdeline"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:icann@FERDELINE.COM"><icann@FERDELINE.COM></a><br>
<b>Sent</b>: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 6:18 PM<br>
<b>To</b>: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject</b>: Re: AW: [NCSG-Discuss] Geographic Regions
Review Working Group Report - NCSG Response</span>
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<div><font>Hello all,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font>Just a reminder that the deadline to submit
our comments on the final report of the Geographic
Regions Review Working Group is fast approaching.
If we agree to submit something (and I will
confess I am not too sure of process here - do we
want to submit something? Is this something best
discussed on Thursday's open policy call?) it
would be helpful to have your feedback in by next
Tuesday. This is because the deadline for comments
is 24 April.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font>I was reading the statement that was <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://links7.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/HNd3LAYRAqsA2njoA?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI">submitted
by the Registries Stakeholder Group</a>
yesterday. They began with an interesting remark
which I would like to quote in full - I don't
think there is value in us echoing it, but it
might be something we'd like to note in our
response to the Draft Framework of Principles for
Cross Community Working Groups, if we respond:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font><i>“The RySG notes that it has been nearly
nine years since the concerns about the
definition and use of Geographic Regions were
highlighted by the ccNSO in 2007 and almost
three years since the WGGR produced its final
report in June 2013. The reason for these
exceptionally long timelines is unclear but they
might be cause of concern for some RySG
members.” </i></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font>Just for ease of reference, here is a link
to the statement I have drafted so far which
incorporates the inputs of around 20 NCSG members.
I am not precious about the words. If you would
like to change something, please go ahead and
re-phrase it:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit?usp=sharing">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit?usp=sharing</a></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font>I look forward to hearing your thoughts.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font>Best wishes,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div class="mixmax_signature">
<div>Ayden Férdeline</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://links2.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/lqkayIE4XigvCIbYy?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI"
style="background-color: white;">Statement of
Interest</a></div>
</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 10:48 PM,
Ayden Férdeline <span dir="ltr"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com">icann@ferdeline.com</a></a></span>
wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
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<div><font>Hi Glenn, and others,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your comments. Regarding the
Fellowship, as you know, ICANN takes a
rather economically deterministic view
in assessing eligibility. In order to be
eligible for a Fellowship, a candidate
must be a citizen of a country classed
by the World Bank as a low,
lower-middle, or upper-middle economy. I
don't happen to see anything wrong with
means testing this programme. Nor do I
see anything wrong with deferring to a
recognised third-party to make the call
as to whether someone can afford or not
to participate (it's hardly within
ICANN's remit to be doing this). But
still, the eligibility criteria is
broken.</font></div>
<div><br>
<font>The biggest issue I see is this:
just because a country is supposedly
high-income does not mean the Fellow
comes from such a background. It does
not mean that a country invests in
education, nor is looking to build the
capacity of its citizenry in Internet
governance matters. I can only speak
from personal experience here — living
in the UK, higher education is very much
another commodity to be exported, not
something that the State sees a
responsibility to invest in. The other
flaw is in the data set. We're relying
on data self-reported by States to the
World Bank. Some countries do not report
accurate data and it is unclear what
repercussions (if any) there are for
doing so. The figures that Argentina,
for instance, reports are questionable
in accuracy. This is a country that goes
to the trouble of <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://links2.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/R7HrwMGbPdKsgJC5z?rn=iUmbpxWZkJXqDbEIuVGZ5FkI&re=i02bj5SZulGblRmclZGQu5WYjlmI">rigging
the Economist's Big Mac Index</a> (by
imposing price controls on Big Macs); I
would put forward that the figures they
are reporting to the World Bank are
intended for domestic consumption and
not grounded in reality. The very real
impact here, however, is that Argentines
are not eligible for ICANN Fellowships,
because Argentina has self-reported
itself to the World Bank as a
high-income economy. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font>My preference would be for the
Fellowship programme to be extended to
those of all nationalities. Of course
there should be some way to recognise
and account for privilege, but
particularly for early career
participants and those without
institutional backing, it doesn't matter
which country you come from — funding to
participate in ICANN activities is going
to be an issue.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font>To your other comments, Glenn, I
am glad that Ed has taken ownership of
this matter and will seek a response
from the relevant parties. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font>Best wishes,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font>Ayden</font></div>
<img alt=""
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<div>On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 6:39 PM, Glenn
McKnight <span dir="ltr"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mcknight.glenn@GMAIL.COM"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mcknight.glenn@GMAIL.COM">mcknight.glenn@GMAIL.COM</a></a></span>
wrote:
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">We have been bringing up
'forever' the issue of First Nations
from North America and elsewhere which
are denied access to the fellowship.
Also the 15 islands under NARALO for
the South Pacific. These members are
deemed part of the rich west and not
eligible. Meanwhile American Samoa or
the Hopi Reservations make less many of
the countries ie. Barbados and others
who are deemed worthy to be fellows.
I am speaking with Loris Taylor of
Native Public Media and she is working
with the Tribal elders in the US to join
GAC since US tribes which are treaty
countries are eligible. No one from
ICANN has responded to them.
<div><br>
Glenn</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Glenn McKnight<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mcknight.glenn@gmail.com"
target="_blank">mcknight.glenn@gmail.com</a><br>
skype gmcknight<br>
twitter gmcknight<br>
.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:06 PM,
Kathy Kleiman <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com">kathy@kathykleiman.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
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solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">Hi Tracy, Ayden and
All,<br>
I came from the South School of
Internet Governance last week
(organized by Olga Cavalli) and
learned that a lot of time is
being spent arguing about and
within regions. And there is much
work and so many other issues to
argue about!<br>
<br>
To Ayden's questions below, which
did not make it to me earlier, let
me respond: I think that it is
people who should organize their
regions within ICANN. Israel, for
example, might object to being in
the Middle Eastern region; as
their citizens are so often denied
entrance to conferences in nearby
countries, they normally go to
Europe and other areas for their
meetings. Why should their young
people have no chance at getting a
NextGen scholarship if it is only
regional and they can't attend
anything in their regions? That's
just one example.<br>
<br>
The ones Tracy points to below is
another example - and solution.<br>
<br>
I dislike "recreating the wheel"
and my guess is that others have
solved this issue many times and
in many ways over the years. What
has worked?<br>
Ayden, as a traveler of the world,
I certainly vote for you to help
solve this interesting problem!<br>
Best,<br>
Kathy
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
On 4/6/2016 2:56 PM, Tracy
F. Hackshaw @ Google wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">For these
reasons and more, the GAC
deliberately avoids
recognition of "regions"
in the ICANN space.</p>
<p dir="ltr">In terms of the
Americas - geography
certainly does not rule
even re: the RIRs and the
Caribbean is probably the
best/worst example:</p>
<p dir="ltr">Consider this
(via the NRO)</p>
<p dir="ltr"><b><u>The ARIN
Caribbean</u></b></p>
<p dir="ltr">US VIRGIN
ISLANDS<br>
BRITISH VIRGIN ISLANDS<br>
ANGUILLA<br>
ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA<br>
BAHAMAS<br>
BARBADOS<br>
BERMUDA<br>
CAYMAN ISLANDS<br>
DOMINICA<br>
GRENADA<br>
GUADELOUPE<br>
JAMAICA<br>
MARTINIQUE<br>
PUERTO RICO<br>
SAINT KITTS AND NEVIS<br>
SAINT LUCIA<br>
SAINT VINCENT AND THE
GRENADINES<br>
TURKS AND CAICOS ISLANDS</p>
<p dir="ltr"><u><b>The
LACNIC Caribbean</b></u></p>
<p dir="ltr">ARUBA<br>
CUBA<br>
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC<br>
FRENCH GUIANA<br>
GUYANA<br>
HAITI<br>
NETHERLANDS ANTILLES<br>
SURINAME<br>
TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO</p>
<p dir="ltr"><b><u>The RIPE
NCC Caribbean</u></b></p>
<p dir="ltr">MONTSERRAT</p>
<p dir="ltr">SAINT MARTIN?</p>
<p dir="ltr"><b><u>Unclear</u></b></p>
<p dir="ltr">Caribbean
Netherlands - Bonaire,
Sint Eustatius, and Saba -
LACNIC ?</p>
<p dir="ltr">Curacao -
LACNIC?</p>
<p dir="ltr">Sint Maarten -
LACNIC?</p>
<p dir="ltr">Saint Martin -
RIPE NCC?</p>
<p dir="ltr"><b><u>Other
idiosyncrasies
(defying geography):</u></b></p>
<p dir="ltr">Malawi - ARIN<br>
Antarctica - ARIN</p>
<p dir="ltr">(I could be
missing one or two island
territories/States)</p>
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<div>Hi Kathy,</div>
<div><br>
Thanks for
your comments.
I just wanted
to pick up on
something; you
mentioned that
(similar,
presumably)
legal
structures
should be one
of our guiding
instruments in
the new
geographic
regions
framework.
What were you
thinking of
here? That in
the GAC, ICANN
should be
measuring how
many members
have common
and civil law
along with,
say, Sharia
law
provisions, in
relation to
the total
number of
countries in
the world with
those legal
systems? How
valuable would
that be? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I am not a
lawyer so my
understanding
of this topic
is very
limited: I
thought every
country's
legal system
had its own
identity -
though some
have been <font>inherited
from or
influenced by
colonialism,
or another
factor - so
I'm not
certain as to
what we would
be trying to
achieve here.
What type of
diversity
would you like
to see in
terms of legal
structures?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Many
thanks,</div>
<div><br>
Ayden</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>On Thu,
Mar 31, 2016
4:07 PM, Kathy
Kleiman <span
dir="ltr"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kathy@KATHYKLEIMAN.COM"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kathy@KATHYKLEIMAN.COM">kathy@KATHYKLEIMAN.COM</a></a></span>
wrote:
<blockquote
style="margin:0
0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">All,
I am not sure
that the
technical
regions need
to be our
guiding point
here. As
Wolfgang
points out,
the technical
regions are a
little skewed.
I would like
language,
culture, legal
structure,
civil society
structures,
and business
structures
should be our
guide here.
Quick note
that Mexico
was “deemed”
part of the
Latin American
region at the
founding of
ICANN for
these reasons.
Tx for the
work and
discussion!
Best, Kathy On
3/31/2016 7:25
AM,
“Kleinwächter,
Wolfgang”
wrote: >
All this can
be understood
only in the
historical
context: Look
at the service
region for
today´s RIPE
NCC(<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/info/list-of-members/europe"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/info/list-of-members/europe">https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/info/list-of-members/europe</a></a>)
which - as the
“European” RIR
- inlcudes
Middle East
and Central
Asien
countries.
When AFRINIC
was formed in
the early
2000s they
took mainly
sub-saharian
countries
which were
served
previously by
ARIN and RIPE
and left some
middle east
countries with
RIPE.
Difficult to
explain . But
the good news
is: It
works.... >
> wolfgang
> >
-----Ursprüngliche
Nachricht-----
> Von:
NCSG-Discuss
im Auftrag von
Shane Kerr
> Gesendet:
Do 31.03.2016
13:06 > An:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a></a>
> Betreff:
Re:
[NCSG-Discuss]
Geographic
Regions Review
Working Group
Report - NCSG
Response >
> Seun,
> >
While ARIN
predates
ICANN, when
ICANN was
formed ARIN
was still the
RIR > for
North America,
South America,
and
sub-Saharan
Africa.
Certainly in
> the case
of Jamaica,
since the
official
language is
English it
made a >
certain amount
of sense for
them to have
stayed with
ARIN as an
RIR. > >
The Caribbean
islands all
have unique
backgrounds,
and I suspect
trying > to
group them to
get any kind
of regional
consensus is
always going
to > be
problematic.
:) > >
Cheers, >
> -- >
Shane >
> At
2016-03-29
21:55:41 +0100
> Seun
Ojedeji wrote:
> >>
That
particularly
amazed me
Tracy. There
is an ARIN
meeting that
will be
>>
holding in
Jamaica
sometime in
April. It was
quite
interesting
for me to
>> learn
that based on
ICANN
categorisation,
.jm fall under
the LAC zone
even >>
though it's
within the
ARIN region
(RIR wise).
Don't know how
much this
>>
impacts on the
work of the
NCSG but I
believe it
does for the
At-Large
>>
community.
>>
>>
Considering
that ARIN
predates
ICANN, one
would expect
there is
already
>>
existing data
set to work
with.
Nevertheless,
I guess there
may have been
>> some
other reason
that informed
their decision
which ofcourse
is currently
>> be
out of my
reach/grasps
>>
>>
Regards
>>
>> Sent
from my LG G4
>>
Kindly excuse
brevity and
typos >>
On 29 Mar 2016
9:08 p.m.,
“Tracy F.
Hackshaw”
>>
wrote:
>>
>>>
See ARIN -
LACNIC split
in the
Caribbean
region.
>>>
>>>
Sent from my
Fire
>>>
>>>
>>>
On March 29,
2016, at 3:26
PM, Ayden
Férdeline
>>>
wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
Hi Karel,
>>>
>>>
While that
concern was
raised, my
understanding
is that it was
not carried
>>>
forward into
the
recommendations.
The Working
Group did not
recommend
>>>
moving most of
the Caribbean
region from
the ICANN silo
of Latin
America to
>>>
North America
because it
feared the two
regions would
be split on
>>>
geographical
and linguistic
lines (I would
suggest they
already are.),
>>>
among other
reasons of
“practicality”.
It does,
however, have
provisions in
>>>
place to allow
a country's
government to
voluntarily
request to
move to
>>>
another
region. The
procedures
around how
this would
happen have
not yet
>>>
been developed
by Staff.
>>>
>>> I
welcome any
comments or
suggestions
you might have
for our
statement,
>>>
and I look
forward to
reading your
additions.
>>>
>>>
Best wishes,
>>>
>>>
Ayden
>>>
>>>
>>>
On Tue, Mar
29, 2016 at
7:59 PM, Karel
Douglas
>>>
wrote:
>>>
>>>>
Good work - I
read the NCUC
report which
caused me to
immediately
>>>>
read the final
report of the
WG.
>>>>
>>>>
I'm glad that
the issue of
the Caribbean
region was
discussed as
it is a
>>>>
very topical
issue.
>>>>
>>>>
Carlton
Samuels was on
the WG and
would have
highlighted
the concerns
>>>>
that we have.
>>>>
>>>>
I will
certainly try
to add a few
comments on
your document.
>>>>
>>>>
regards
>>>>
>>>>
Karel
>>>>
>>>>
On Tue, Mar
29, 2016 at
1:26 PM, Ayden
Férdeline
>>>>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
Hello, team-
>>>>>
>>>>>
I have drafted
a response to
the final
report of the
Geographic
Regions
>>>>>
Review Working
Group.
Comments are
due in about
25 days time
but if we do
>>>>>
decide to
reply, I hope
we can submit
something in
advance of
that
>>>>>
deadline. I've
shared my
first draft on
Google Docs
here
>>>>>
>>>>>
and have also
attached it to
this email for
those without
access to that
>>>>>
website.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit</a></a>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
You can read
the Working
Group's final
report here:
>>>>>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.icann.org/public-comments/geo-regions-2015-12-23-en"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.icann.org/public-comments/geo-regions-2015-12-23-en">https://www.icann.org/public-comments/geo-regions-2015-12-23-en</a></a>
>>>>>
>>>>>
I suspect that
we will have a
wide birth of
opinions on
this topic, so
>>>>>
please know
that I'm very
much open to
reviewing or
rethinking
anything
>>>>>
that appears
in this early
draft. I am
also new to
writing public
comments
>>>>>
like this one
so welcome any
feedback you
would be kind
enough to
share. I
>>>>>
look forward
to hearing
your thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>>
Ayden
Férdeline
>>>>>
>>>>>
[image: File]
>>>>>
>>>>>
Ayden
Ferdeline -
Response -
WGGR
Report.pdf
36KB
>>>>>
Download
>>>>>
>>>>>
[image:
>>>>>
Logo]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
Ayden
Férdeline
>>>
Statement of
Interest
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
Ayden
Férdeline
>>>
Statement of
Interest
>>>
>>></blockquote>
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<div>
<div>Ayden
Férdeline</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://links6.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/NFYlE7DXtQCyuTshl?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI"
style="background-color:white" target="_blank">Statement of Interest</a></div>
</div>
<img alt=""
src="cid:part16.07040309.00080507@mail.utoronto.ca"
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</div>
<div>Ayden Férdeline</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://links10.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/RTRLQY6cekZHrPc4d?rn=iUmbpxWZkJXqDbEIuVGZ5FkI&re=i02bj5SZulGblRmclZGQu5WYjlmI"
style="background-color: white;">Statement of
Interest</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>Ayden Férdeline</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://links7.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/iCqYkhyENkmiusddu?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI"
style="background-color: white;">Statement of Interest</a></div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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