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Ed, <br>
Perhaps you can help Ayden with the answer you would like to see. In
some ways, Taiwan is an outlier problem. I was one of the
commenters who encouraged Ayden to write about allowing more
flexibility around cultural, economic, linguistic and ideological
lines. It is because we know that the current lines are making
things very difficult in some regions and bind countries without
similarities together in ways that are causing certain existing
regions inordinate amounts of effort and time in their divisions -
and loss of time on their policy work. <br>
<br>
So I encouraged more flexibility and exceptions -- of the sort that
put Mexico with the ICANN Latin American region years ago although
it is clearly a country in North America. <br>
<br>
Re: Taiwan, clearly you are an expert, Ed. How can we give other
countries flexibility to more easily self-organize where it makes
sense, but not allow the prejudice you are pointing out that may
come to Taiwan?<br>
Tx,<br>
Kathy<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/13/2016 2:46 PM, Edward Morris
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:7dd131d09de44e8d94bd3c6755432079@toast.net"
type="cite"><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">
<div>Ayden,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Here are the facts:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>1. Taiwan IS a full member of the GAC under the name
"Chinese Tapei".</div>
<div> </div>
<div>2. Hong Kong is a member of the GAC under the name "Hong
Kong Special Administrative Region, China"</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Both of these entities are assigned to the Asian Pacific
region.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In the report that is under consideration the word "state"
is used repeatedly. My fear is if what I understand you are
proposing the NCSG to ask for: rearranging our geographic
locations in part because of culture, language and other
concerns, is approved, additional regions are created with
only "states" being able to request reassignment as to to the
region of their desire.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Here's my hypothetical problem: A region called Greater
China is created. Taiwan and Hong Kong are placed within China
Region rather than, say, within a region that contained South
Korea or Japan. The people of Taiwan , in this scenario, could
very well be placed in a region they don't want to be in. What
if their request for a change was opposed by Beijing under the
claim Taiwan is not a state? What if Taiwan were placed in a
region away from Beijing and Beijing requested their
reassignment within that region. Your solution:</div>
<div> </div>
<div><em><span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family:
arial, sans-serif;"> my understanding is that under the
proposed new framework either the GAC or
a ministerial-level official from the People's Republic of
China would need to request that the Republic of China be
treated as a unitary state.</span></em></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">?I repeat:
Taiwan is already a member of the GAC. Have you told
them that? Beijing has absolutely no say in who
represents Taiwan in ICANN. Next month Tsai Ing-wen takes
office as the President of the Republic of China. There is
likely to be a change in Taiwan's representation within the
GAC and, if my contacts are to be believed, Taiwan's role
here will be greatly upgraded as the individual to be
appointed is a former Ambassador of the RoC (and a personal
friend).</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">I should
note that I reject your comparisons to Scotland and Spain.
If you believe that Taiwan is a de facto part of the
Peoples Republic I'd encourage you to try to enter
Taipei with a visa from the PRC. You'll be escorted to the
next flight home. Not true in the other regions. I also
note that 22 nations of this world recognise the Republic of
China as the proper government for all of China and do
not recognise the Peoples Republic of China, including the
Holy See (which is also a GAC member).</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Let me further note that Panama recognises Taiwan and not
Beijing as the proper governing unit for China. One of the sad
parts of the cancellation of our Panama meeting is that a
conference I had been working to present in cooperation with
the Embassy of the Republic of China to Panama entitled
"Online free speech in Asia" will not now take place.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I do agree with you Ayden when you write "<font
color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">it does not seem to
me that ICANN is the right forum to be holding these
debates". Which is why 'state' needs to be replaced as a
term. Or perhaps during a rescheduled meeting in Panama the
Taiwanese government can claim to have the jurisdiction to
ask that China be placed in the African region. On
what basis would ICANN say no to that? In Panama Taiwan has
legal jurisdiction to represent ALL of China.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">?I
would suggest the term 'state' be replaced by "national
governments and distinct economies that have been granted
membership in the GAC" or that state can be defined
elsewhere in the document as being such. This is the exact
definition used for creating membership eligibility for the
GAC. I'd suggest we should make this request in our public
comment in order to avoid potential conflict down the road.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">Personally,
because of the many complications involved in changing the
regional structures I do not believe this is something ICANN
should do at the current transitionary time. I will likely
be a "no" vote when the public comment comes before the
Policy Committee for approval. That said, I do believe the
word 'state' creates such danger when applied in this manner
I will be submitting my own personal comment during the open
period on that single matter.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">Thanks again
for your hard work on this Ayden.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">Kind
Regards,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif">Ed Morris</font></div>
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<div><span style="font-family: tahoma,arial,sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt;"><b>From</b>: "Ayden Férdeline"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:icann@FERDELINE.COM"><icann@FERDELINE.COM></a><br>
<b>Sent</b>: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 6:31 PM<br>
<b>To</b>: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject</b>: Re: AW: [NCSG-Discuss] Geographic Regions
Review Working Group Report - NCSG Response</span>
<div> </div>
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<div>Hi Ed and Stephanie,</div>
<div><br>
Thanks for your inputs here. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The question of Taiwan is a difficult one.
Regardless of whether one supports Chinese
reunification or Taiwanese independence, it does not
seem to me that ICANN is the right forum to be
holding these debates. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I took a look at APEC to see how they deal with
Taiwan, and some academics have said it is
recognised through a “policy of deliberate
ambiguity.” The Working Group, in its final report,
has recommended that ICANN respect State sovereignty
while also offering the right to self-determination.
Staff have not drafted guidelines on how this might
be implemented but my understanding is that under
the proposed new framework either the GAC or
a ministerial-level official from the People's
Republic of China would need to request that the
Republic of China be treated as a unitary state.
(Need I even mention how unlikely that would be?) </div>
<div> </div>
<div>This may not seem a satisfactory outcome, but I
do think it's the most sensible position for ICANN
to take. We do not want to be in a position where we
are deciding whether Barcelona is a part of Spain or
Catalonia, whether Scotland is a part of the UK or
an independent nation, whether Las Malvinas/Falkland
Islands are British or Argentine. I would feel more
comfortable deferring to an external body to make
the determination as to what is or is not a State. I
am not sure which third party we should be turning
to here, but I am certain that a Californian
non-profit shouldn't be involved in questions of
national sovereignty or self-determination.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>On an unrelated note I was reading the ICANN EMEA
newsletter a few moments ago and saw we have a Vice
President for the Middle East. Not sure how that
works given ICANN's current geographic regions
framework recognises the existence of just five
regions...?</div>
<div><br>
Thanks again, Ed and Stephanie, for your comments.
If there is disagreement with my views here - and
indeed we would like to define what is or is not a
state - please do write back and we can discuss
further.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ayden</div>
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<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 2:29 PM,
Stephanie Perrin <span dir="ltr"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@MAIL.UTORONTO.CA"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stephanie.perrin@MAIL.UTORONTO.CA">stephanie.perrin@MAIL.UTORONTO.CA</a></a></span>
wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Perhaps
a note about how APEC deals with this might be
helpful? Dangerous turf....<br>
cheers stephanie<br>
<div>On 2016-04-13 8:00, Edward Morris wrote:</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:216f5478b82f40d4a7a68d957103e7d9@toast.net"
type="cite">
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">Hi Ayden.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">Thank you very
much for your hard work on this. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">Is there some
place in the document we can either clarify,
define, add to or modify the word 'state'.?</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">Quick example:
Taiwan is represented in the GAC. I and 22
countries of the world, including Panama, for
example, consider Taiwan to be a state. Yet,
the United Nations does not. If we create
further regions based upon culture and Asia is
divided into multiple groups it is
conceivable that Taiwan would automatically be
lumped i with Chins where the criteria used in
assignment would not normally generate that
outcome. There are other examples of this, in
the Middle East being another.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">Thanks for
considering how and where this could fit ion
to our comment.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">Kind Regards,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">Ed Mporris </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
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style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"><span
style="font-family: tahoma,arial,sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt;"><b>From</b>: "Ayden
Férdeline" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:icann@FERDELINE.COM"><icann@FERDELINE.COM></a><br>
<b>Sent</b>: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 6:18 PM<br>
<b>To</b>: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject</b>: Re: AW: [NCSG-Discuss]
Geographic Regions Review Working Group
Report - NCSG Response</span> </span>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span>
<table style="width:100%; margin-top:6px;"
valign="top" border="0" lang="container"
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<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>Hello all,</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>Just a reminder that the
deadline to submit our comments on
the final report of the Geographic
Regions Review Working Group is
fast approaching. If we agree to
submit something (and I will
confess I am not too sure of
process here - do we want to
submit something? Is this
something best discussed on
Thursday's open policy call?) it
would be helpful to have your
feedback in by next Tuesday. This
is because the deadline for
comments is 24 April.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>I was reading the
statement that was <a
href="https://links7.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/HNd3LAYRAqsA2njoA?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI"
moz-do-not-send="true">submitted
by the Registries Stakeholder
Group</a> yesterday. They began
with an interesting remark which I
would like to quote in full - I
don't think there is value in us
echoing it, but it might be
something we'd like to note in our
response to the Draft Framework of
Principles for Cross Community
Working Groups, if we respond:</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font><i>“The RySG notes that
it has been nearly nine years
since the concerns about the
definition and use of Geographic
Regions were highlighted by the
ccNSO in 2007 and almost three
years since the WGGR produced
its final report in June 2013.
The reason for these
exceptionally long timelines is
unclear but they might be cause
of concern for some RySG
members.” </i></font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>Just for ease of
reference, here is a link to the
statement I have drafted so far
which incorporates the inputs of
around 20 NCSG members. I am not
precious about the words. If you
would like to change something,
please go ahead and re-phrase it:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit?usp=sharing">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit?usp=sharing</a></font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>I look forward to
hearing your thoughts.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>Best wishes,</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px">Ayden Férdeline</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><a
href="https://links2.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/lqkayIE4XigvCIbYy?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI"
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="background-color: white;">Statement
of Interest</a></span></div>
</div>
<span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><img alt=""
moz-do-not-send="true"
src="imap://kathy%40kathykleiman%2Ecom@gmmn-6gkh.accessdomain.com:993/fetch%3EUID%3E.INBOX%3E170367?header=quotebody&part=1.2&filename=attachment-1.gif"
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<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">
</span>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">
</span>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px">On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 10:48 PM,
Ayden Férdeline <span dir="ltr"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:icann@ferdeline.com">icann@ferdeline.com</a></a></span>
wrote: </span>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>Hi Glenn, and
others,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your
comments. Regarding the
Fellowship, as you know,
ICANN takes a rather
economically
deterministic view in
assessing eligibility.
In order to be eligible
for a Fellowship, a
candidate must be a
citizen of a country
classed by the World
Bank as a low,
lower-middle, or
upper-middle economy. I
don't happen to see
anything wrong with
means testing this
programme. Nor do I see
anything wrong with
deferring to a
recognised third-party
to make the call as to
whether someone can
afford or not to
participate (it's hardly
within ICANN's remit to
be doing this). But
still, the eligibility
criteria is broken.</font></span></div>
<div><br>
<span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>The biggest
issue I see is this:
just because a country
is supposedly
high-income does not
mean the Fellow comes
from such a background.
It does not mean that a
country invests in
education, nor is
looking to build the
capacity of its
citizenry in Internet
governance matters. I
can only speak from
personal experience here
— living in the UK,
higher education is very
much another commodity
to be exported, not
something that the State
sees a responsibility to
invest in. The other
flaw is in the data set.
We're relying on data
self-reported by States
to the World Bank. Some
countries do not report
accurate data and it is
unclear what
repercussions (if any)
there are for doing so.
The figures that
Argentina, for instance,
reports are questionable
in accuracy. This is a
country that goes to the
trouble of <a
href="https://links2.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/R7HrwMGbPdKsgJC5z?rn=iUmbpxWZkJXqDbEIuVGZ5FkI&re=i02bj5SZulGblRmclZGQu5WYjlmI"
moz-do-not-send="true">rigging
the Economist's Big
Mac Index</a> (by
imposing price controls
on Big Macs); I would
put forward that the
figures they are
reporting to the World
Bank are intended for
domestic consumption and
not grounded in reality.
The very real impact
here, however, is that
Argentines are not
eligible for ICANN
Fellowships, because
Argentina has
self-reported itself to
the World Bank as a
high-income economy. </font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>My preference
would be for the
Fellowship programme to
be extended to those of
all nationalities. Of
course there should be
some way to recognise
and account for
privilege, but
particularly for early
career participants and
those without
institutional backing,
it doesn't matter which
country you come from —
funding to participate
in ICANN activities is
going to be an issue.</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>To your other
comments, Glenn, I am
glad that Ed has taken
ownership of this matter
and will seek a response
from the relevant
parties. </font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>Best wishes,</font></span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><font>Ayden</font></span></div>
<span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"><img
alt=""
src="cid:part11.09050504.04040608@kathykleiman.com"
style="border:0;
width:0px; height:0px;"
align="left" height="0"
width="0"></span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<div>
<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica, Sans-Serif;
font-size: 12px"> </span>
<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica, Sans-Serif;
font-size: 12px"> </span>
<div><span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">On
Thu, Apr 7, 2016 6:39 PM,
Glenn McKnight <span
dir="ltr"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mcknight.glenn@GMAIL.COM"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mcknight.glenn@GMAIL.COM">mcknight.glenn@GMAIL.COM</a></a></span>
wrote: </span>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px">We have been
bringing up 'forever'
the issue of First
Nations from North
America and elsewhere
which are denied access
to the fellowship.
Also the 15 islands
under NARALO for the
South Pacific. These
members are deemed part
of the rich west and not
eligible. Meanwhile
American Samoa or the
Hopi Reservations make
less many of the
countries ie. Barbados
and others who are
deemed worthy to be
fellows. I am speaking
with Loris Taylor of
Native Public Media and
she is working with the
Tribal elders in the US
to join GAC since US
tribes which are treaty
countries are
eligible. No one from
ICANN has responded to
them. </span>
<div><br>
<span
style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px">Glenn</span></div>
<span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size: 12px">Glenn
McKnight<br>
<a
href="mailto:mcknight.glenn@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mcknight.glenn@gmail.com">mcknight.glenn@gmail.com</a></a><br>
skype gmcknight<br>
twitter gmcknight<br>
.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<span style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span>
<div><span
style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px">On Thu, Apr 7,
2016 at 1:06 PM, Kathy
Kleiman <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com">kathy@kathykleiman.com</a></a>></span>
wrote: </span>
<blockquote
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000"><span
style="font-family:
Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size: 12px">Hi
Tracy, Ayden and
All,<br>
I came from the
South School of
Internet
Governance last
week (organized by
Olga Cavalli) and
learned that a lot
of time is being
spent arguing
about and within
regions. And there
is much work and
so many other
issues to argue
about!<br>
<br>
To Ayden's
questions below,
which did not make
it to me earlier,
let me respond: I
think that it is
people who should
organize their
regions within
ICANN. Israel, for
example, might
object to being in
the Middle Eastern
region; as their
citizens are so
often denied
entrance to
conferences in
nearby countries,
they normally go
to Europe and
other areas for
their meetings.
Why should their
young people have
no chance at
getting a NextGen
scholarship if it
is only regional
and they can't
attend anything in
their regions?
That's just one
example.<br>
<br>
The ones Tracy
points to below is
another example -
and solution.<br>
<br>
I dislike
"recreating the
wheel" and my
guess is that
others have solved
this issue many
times and in many
ways over the
years. What has
worked?<br>
Ayden, as a
traveler of the
world, I certainly
vote for you to
help solve this
interesting
problem!<br>
Best,<br>
Kathy </span>
<div>
<div><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"> </span>
<div><br>
<span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">On
4/6/2016 2:56
PM, Tracy F.
Hackshaw @
Google wrote:</span></div>
<span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"> </span>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">For
these reasons
and more, the
GAC
deliberately
avoids
recognition of
"regions" in
the ICANN
space.</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">In terms
of the
Americas -
geography
certainly does
not rule even
re: the RIRs
and the
Caribbean is
probably the
best/worst
example:</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">Consider
this (via the
NRO)</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"><b><u>The
ARIN Caribbean</u></b></span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">US
VIRGIN ISLANDS<br>
BRITISH VIRGIN
ISLANDS<br>
ANGUILLA<br>
ANTIGUA AND
BARBUDA<br>
BAHAMAS<br>
BARBADOS<br>
BERMUDA<br>
CAYMAN ISLANDS<br>
DOMINICA<br>
GRENADA<br>
GUADELOUPE<br>
JAMAICA<br>
MARTINIQUE<br>
PUERTO RICO<br>
SAINT KITTS
AND NEVIS<br>
SAINT LUCIA<br>
SAINT VINCENT
AND THE
GRENADINES<br>
TURKS AND
CAICOS ISLANDS</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"><u><b>The
LACNIC
Caribbean</b></u></span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">ARUBA<br>
CUBA<br>
DOMINICAN
REPUBLIC<br>
FRENCH GUIANA<br>
GUYANA<br>
HAITI<br>
NETHERLANDS
ANTILLES<br>
SURINAME<br>
TRINIDAD AND
TOBAGO</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"><b><u>The
RIPE NCC
Caribbean</u></b></span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">MONTSERRAT</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">SAINT
MARTIN?</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"><b><u>Unclear</u></b></span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">Caribbean
Netherlands
- Bonaire,
Sint
Eustatius, and
Saba - LACNIC
?</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">Curacao
- LACNIC?</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">Sint
Maarten -
LACNIC?</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">Saint
Martin - RIPE
NCC?</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"><b><u>Other
idiosyncrasies
(defying
geography):</u></b></span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">Malawi -
ARIN<br>
Antarctica -
ARIN</span></p>
<p dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">(I could
be missing one
or two island
territories/States)</span></p>
<div
style="margin:0
0 0
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#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="word-wrap:normal;word-break:break-word">
<table
style="width:100%;margin-top:6px"
valign="top"
border="0"
lang="container"
cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="line-height:1.31;color:#222;font-family:arial,sans-serif"
valign="top">
<div><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">Hi
Kathy,</span></div>
<div><br>
<span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">Thanks
for your
comments. I
just wanted to
pick up on
something; you
mentioned that
(similar,
presumably)
legal
structures
should be one
of our guiding
instruments in
the new
geographic
regions
framework.
What were you
thinking of
here? That in
the GAC, ICANN
should be
measuring how
many members
have common
and civil law
along with,
say, Sharia
law
provisions, in
relation to
the total
number of
countries in
the world with
those legal
systems? How
valuable would
that be? </span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">I am not
a lawyer so my
understanding
of this topic
is very
limited: I
thought every
country's
legal system
had its own
identity -
though some
have been <font>inherited
from or
influenced by
colonialism,
or another
factor - so
I'm not
certain as to
what we would
be trying to
achieve here.
What type of
diversity
would you like
to see in
terms of legal
structures?</font></span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">Many
thanks,</span></div>
<div><br>
<span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">Ayden</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<div>
<div><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"> </span>
<div><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">On Thu,
Mar 31, 2016
4:07 PM, Kathy
Kleiman <span
dir="ltr"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kathy@KATHYKLEIMAN.COM"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kathy@KATHYKLEIMAN.COM">kathy@KATHYKLEIMAN.COM</a></a></span>
wrote: </span>
<blockquote
style="margin:0
0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
style="font-family:
Arial,
Helvetica,
Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px">All, I
am not sure
that the
technical
regions need
to be our
guiding point
here. As
Wolfgang
points out,
the technical
regions are a
little skewed.
I would like
language,
culture, legal
structure,
civil society
structures,
and business
structures
should be our
guide here.
Quick note
that Mexico
was “deemed”
part of the
Latin American
region at the
founding of
ICANN for
these reasons.
Tx for the
work and
discussion!
Best, Kathy On
3/31/2016 7:25
AM,
“Kleinwächter,
Wolfgang”
wrote: >
All this can
be understood
only in the
historical
context: Look
at the service
region for
today´s RIPE
NCC(<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/info/list-of-members/europe"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/info/list-of-members/europe">https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/info/list-of-members/europe</a></a>)
which - as the
“European” RIR
- inlcudes
Middle East
and Central
Asien
countries.
When AFRINIC
was formed in
the early
2000s they
took mainly
sub-saharian
countries
which were
served
previously by
ARIN and RIPE
and left some
middle east
countries with
RIPE.
Difficult to
explain . But
the good news
is: It
works.... >
> wolfgang
> >
-----Ursprüngliche
Nachricht-----
> Von:
NCSG-Discuss
im Auftrag von
Shane Kerr
> Gesendet:
Do 31.03.2016
13:06 > An:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a></a>
> Betreff:
Re:
[NCSG-Discuss]
Geographic
Regions Review
Working Group
Report - NCSG
Response >
> Seun,
> >
While ARIN
predates
ICANN, when
ICANN was
formed ARIN
was still the
RIR > for
North America,
South America,
and
sub-Saharan
Africa.
Certainly in
> the case
of Jamaica,
since the
official
language is
English it
made a >
certain amount
of sense for
them to have
stayed with
ARIN as an
RIR. > >
The Caribbean
islands all
have unique
backgrounds,
and I suspect
trying > to
group them to
get any kind
of regional
consensus is
always going
to > be
problematic.
:) > >
Cheers, >
> -- >
Shane >
> At
2016-03-29
21:55:41 +0100
> Seun
Ojedeji wrote:
> >>
That
particularly
amazed me
Tracy. There
is an ARIN
meeting that
will be
>>
holding in
Jamaica
sometime in
April. It was
quite
interesting
for me to
>> learn
that based on
ICANN
categorisation,
.jm fall under
the LAC zone
even >>
though it's
within the
ARIN region
(RIR wise).
Don't know how
much this
>>
impacts on the
work of the
NCSG but I
believe it
does for the
At-Large
>>
community.
>>
>>
Considering
that ARIN
predates
ICANN, one
would expect
there is
already
>>
existing data
set to work
with.
Nevertheless,
I guess there
may have been
>> some
other reason
that informed
their decision
which ofcourse
is currently
>> be
out of my
reach/grasps
>>
>>
Regards
>>
>> Sent
from my LG G4
>>
Kindly excuse
brevity and
typos >>
On 29 Mar 2016
9:08 p.m.,
“Tracy F.
Hackshaw”
>>
wrote:
>>
>>>
See ARIN -
LACNIC split
in the
Caribbean
region.
>>>
>>>
Sent from my
Fire
>>>
>>>
>>>
On March 29,
2016, at 3:26
PM, Ayden
Férdeline
>>>
wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
Hi Karel,
>>>
>>>
While that
concern was
raised, my
understanding
is that it was
not carried
>>>
forward into
the
recommendations.
The Working
Group did not
recommend
>>>
moving most of
the Caribbean
region from
the ICANN silo
of Latin
America to
>>>
North America
because it
feared the two
regions would
be split on
>>>
geographical
and linguistic
lines (I would
suggest they
already are.),
>>>
among other
reasons of
“practicality”.
It does,
however, have
provisions in
>>>
place to allow
a country's
government to
voluntarily
request to
move to
>>>
another
region. The
procedures
around how
this would
happen have
not yet
>>>
been developed
by Staff.
>>>
>>> I
welcome any
comments or
suggestions
you might have
for our
statement,
>>>
and I look
forward to
reading your
additions.
>>>
>>>
Best wishes,
>>>
>>>
Ayden
>>>
>>>
>>>
On Tue, Mar
29, 2016 at
7:59 PM, Karel
Douglas
>>>
wrote:
>>>
>>>>
Good work - I
read the NCUC
report which
caused me to
immediately
>>>>
read the final
report of the
WG.
>>>>
>>>>
I'm glad that
the issue of
the Caribbean
region was
discussed as
it is a
>>>>
very topical
issue.
>>>>
>>>>
Carlton
Samuels was on
the WG and
would have
highlighted
the concerns
>>>>
that we have.
>>>>
>>>>
I will
certainly try
to add a few
comments on
your document.
>>>>
>>>>
regards
>>>>
>>>>
Karel
>>>>
>>>>
On Tue, Mar
29, 2016 at
1:26 PM, Ayden
Férdeline
>>>>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
Hello, team-
>>>>>
>>>>>
I have drafted
a response to
the final
report of the
Geographic
Regions
>>>>>
Review Working
Group.
Comments are
due in about
25 days time
but if we do
>>>>>
decide to
reply, I hope
we can submit
something in
advance of
that
>>>>>
deadline. I've
shared my
first draft on
Google Docs
here
>>>>>
>>>>>
and have also
attached it to
this email for
those without
access to that
>>>>>
website.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-c2vVT2DNO73l89wfZTvKtY70rmaid8g7XBO-Vto9SM/edit</a></a>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
You can read
the Working
Group's final
report here:
>>>>>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.icann.org/public-comments/geo-regions-2015-12-23-en"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.icann.org/public-comments/geo-regions-2015-12-23-en">https://www.icann.org/public-comments/geo-regions-2015-12-23-en</a></a>
>>>>>
>>>>>
I suspect that
we will have a
wide birth of
opinions on
this topic, so
>>>>>
please know
that I'm very
much open to
reviewing or
rethinking
anything
>>>>>
that appears
in this early
draft. I am
also new to
writing public
comments
>>>>>
like this one
so welcome any
feedback you
would be kind
enough to
share. I
>>>>>
look forward
to hearing
your thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>>
Ayden
Férdeline
>>>>>
>>>>>
[image: File]
>>>>>
>>>>>
Ayden
Ferdeline -
Response -
WGGR
Report.pdf
36KB
>>>>>
Download
>>>>>
>>>>>
[image:
>>>>>
Logo]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
Ayden
Férdeline
>>>
Statement of
Interest
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
Ayden
Férdeline
>>>
Statement of
Interest
>>>
>>></span></blockquote>
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<div>
<div><span
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font-size:
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Férdeline</span></div>
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Sans-Serif;
font-size:
12px"><a
href="https://links6.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/NFYlE7DXtQCyuTshl?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI"
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of Interest</a></span></div>
</div>
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font-size:
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<span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px">Ayden Férdeline</span></div>
<span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"><a
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moz-do-not-send="true"
style="background-color: white;">Statement
of Interest</a></span></div>
<span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></blockquote>
<span style="font-family: Arial,
Helvetica, Sans-Serif; font-size:
12px"> </span></div>
<span style="font-family: Arial,
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</span></div>
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Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
</div>
<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px">Ayden Férdeline</span></div>
<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span>
<div><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"><a
href="https://links7.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/iCqYkhyENkmiusddu?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI"
moz-do-not-send="true"
style="background-color: white;">Statement
of Interest</a></span></div>
<span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px"> </span></div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>Ayden Férdeline</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://links5.mixmaxusercontent.com/aMjjKHWxnLSD3SEwj/l/RraXGPa6CF7rQlOtv?rn=&re=gI1RWZuIXez5idyV2c0NXasB0UTV1QTlERtc0UD5kI"
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