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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/07/2014 6:31 AM, Seun Ojedeji
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAD_dc6g6jViwCw8hNC0KNn4NyCTzCKQ5KDZuNKr1zA=dsyUKHA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hello Milton,<br>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:48 PM,
Milton L Mueller <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu"
target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">One
could have perfectly accurate contact details
on the whois record, but if the inquiry went
into the spam folder or you are on vacation,
or you don’t know what it is and don’t
respond, the domain is suspended. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is why i suggest we review the process to give
adequate room for those kind of reasons you've stated
above. <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
issue is not whether the contact details are
not maintained, but whether the person who has
been emailed responds according to an
artificially imposed deadline.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well i think its known issue that whois contact
details are not maintained. However i understand and
agree with some of the concerns you have stated which
indicates that the process before domain suspension
needs to me revised perhaps. As i hope you agree that
there has to be one form of penalty for people who
don't have a functional whois information.<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">
This test does not really verify accuracy of
contact details but just responsiveness.
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think it should on normal basis do both. If its
not then that is a more reason to re-visit the
process.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">All
these checks do is to subordinate domain name
registrants rights to the surveillance
interests convenience.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Hmm....not sure about the surveillance part, but i
can say yes to possible spamming. Nevertheless i think
we just need to weight the option. Is it better to
have an up-to-date whois or not<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
By "the surveillance interests", Milton meant groups like law
enforcement agencies, perhaps rights holders, etc. <br>
<br>
The crux of Milton's point is that whois responsiveness is mainly
important for stakeholders that have surveillance as their
overriding value. Stakeholders that value privacy and due process
and the rule of law may (but there is room to argue of course)
disagree with surveillance interests on this as well as on many
other things.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAD_dc6g6jViwCw8hNC0KNn4NyCTzCKQ5KDZuNKr1zA=dsyUKHA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>Regards<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="146fdc5d04970580__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></a></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
NCSG-Discuss [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU"
target="_blank">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Seun Ojedeji<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 3, 2014 9:22
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU"
target="_blank">NCSG-DISCUSS@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NCSG-Discuss] Fwd:
[] Fwd: A million domains taken down by
email checks</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>Hello Avri, all</p>
<p>I think this particular issue needs to be
addressed carefully. I personally don't
see why a domain owner would not have a
valid whois contact as one cannot
overemphasise it's advantage.<br>
I think it's okay to penalise those who
don't have valid contact, however the
process that had been taken before
arriving at implementing the penalty is
what I suggest we look into.</p>
<p>There is a whois policy currently under
discussion within the AfriNIC region which
has penalty that results to withdrawing
member IP resource. However before such
implementation is done, there are series
of contacting options (using different
means like phone, email etc, friends,
upstream) that is used by staff to reach
the member. Also the proposal indicates
clear timeline on when to withdraw IP
resource if no luck on reaching member.</p>
<p>So my view is that NCSG looks at the
process currently taken to verify whois
contacts with the aim of suggesting better
ways and perhaps proposing longer timeline
periods. Nevertheless, I think it's still
important to penalise those who don't
maintain their contact details.</p>
<p>Cheers!</p>
<p>sent from Google nexus 4<br>
kindly excuse brevity and typos.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3 Jul 2014 13:56,
"Avri Doria" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:avri@acm.org"
target="_blank">avri@acm.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<br>
<br>
IS this something we are taking a
position on?<br>
<br>
I do not know whether at-large will
decide that this is a registrant<br>
issue instead of a user issue (leaving
aside issues on whether<br>
registrants could be considered a form
of user), but it does seem like<br>
it would be an issue for us.<br>
<br>
Do we want to take it up?<br>
<br>
Is it something the GNSO Council
should take up?<br>
<br>
avri<br>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: [At-Large] Fwd: A million
domains taken down by email checks<br>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 18:36:55 +0800<br>
From: Rinalia Abdul Rahim <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rinalia.abdulrahim@gmail.com"
target="_blank">rinalia.abdulrahim@gmail.com</a>><br>
Reply-To: At-Large Worldwide <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target="_blank">at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>><br>
To: ALAC Working List <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target="_blank">alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>><br>
CC: At-Large Worldwide <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target="_blank">at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>><br>
<br>
Dear ALAC,<br>
<br>
In reference to Joly MacFie's mail to
the At-Large (see forwarded), the<br>
topic was also raised by Registrars
during their meeting with the ICANN<br>
Board in London.<br>
<br>
Fadi posed a question to the
Registrars on whether they have
engaged with<br>
the At-Large on the matter. Fadi then
raised the issue to the At-Large<br>
during his ATLASII Fayre speech.<br>
<br>
It would be important that the
At-Large articulates its position on
the<br>
issue (possibly via an ALAC statement)
as it is being presented as a<br>
problem for Internet users.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Rinalia<br>
---------- Forwarded message
----------<br>
From: "Joly MacFie" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:joly@punkcast.com"
target="_blank">joly@punkcast.com</a>><br>
Date: Jun 26, 2014 1:00 AM<br>
Subject: [At-Large] A million domains
taken down by email checks<br>
To: "At-Large Worldwide" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org"
target="_blank">at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org</a>><br>
Cc:<br>
<br>
Fwd over from the NCSG list. I
underdtand that this would have been<br>
> discussed in today's EWG and
privacy sessions. Any comments?<br>
><br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://domainincite.com/16963-a-million-domains-taken-down-by-email-checks"
target="_blank">
http://domainincite.com/16963-a-million-domains-taken-down-by-email-checks</a><br>
><br>
> A million domains taken down by
email checks<br>
> <<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://domainincite.com/16963-a-million-domains-taken-down-by-email-checks"
target="_blank">
http://domainincite.com/16963-a-million-domains-taken-down-by-email-checks</a><br>
> ><br>
> Kevin Murphy <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://domainincite.com/about"
target="_blank">http://domainincite.com/about</a>>,
June 24, 2014, 14:34:25<br>
> (UTC), Domain Registrars<br>
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://domainincite.com/category/domain-registrars"
target="_blank">http://domainincite.com/category/domain-registrars</a>><br>
><br>
> *Over 800,000 domain names have
been suspended since the beginning of
the<br>
> year as a result of Whois email
verification rules in the new ICANN<br>
> Registrar Accreditation
Agreement.*<br>
><br>
> That’s according to the
Registrars Stakeholder Group, which
collected<br>
> suspension data from registrars
representing about 75% of all
registered<br>
> gTLD domain names.<br>
><br>
> The actual number of suspended
domains could be closer to a million.<br>
><br>
> The 2013 RAA requires registrars
to verify the email addresses listed
in<br>
> their customers’ Whois records.
If they don’t receive the
verification,<br>
> they have to suspend the domain.<br>
><br>
> The RrSG told the ICANN board in
March that these checks were doing
more<br>
> harm than good<br>
> <<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://domainincite.com/16375-are-whois-email-checks-doing-more-harm-than-good"
target="_blank">
http://domainincite.com/16375-are-whois-email-checks-doing-more-harm-than-good</a><br>
> ><br>
> and today Tucows CEO Elliot Noss
presented, as promised, data to back
up<br>
> the claim.<br>
><br>
> “There have been over 800,000
domains suspended,” Noss said. “We
have<br>
> stories of healthcare sites that
have gone down, community groups whose<br>
> sites have gone down.”<br>
><br>
> “I think we can safely say
millions of internet users,” he said.
“Those are<br>
> real people just trying to use
the internet. They are our great<br>
> unrepresented core constituency.”<br>
><br>
> The RrSG wants to see contrasting
data from law enforcement agencies and<br>
> governments — which pushed hard
for Whois verification — showing that
the<br>
> RAA requirement has had a
demonstrable benefit.<br>
><br>
> Registrars asked at the Singapore
meeting in March that law enforcement<br>
> agencies (LEA) be put on notice
that they can’t ask for more Whois
controls<br>
> until they’ve provided such data
and ICANN CEO Fadi Chehade said<br>
> <<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://domainincite.com/16375-are-whois-email-checks-doing-more-harm-than-good"
target="_blank">
http://domainincite.com/16375-are-whois-email-checks-doing-more-harm-than-good</a><br>
> ><br>
> “It shall be done by London.”<br>
><br>
> Noss implied that the majority of
the 800,000 suspended names belong to<br>
> innocent registrants, such as
those who had simply changed email
addresses<br>
> since registering their names.<br>
><br>
> “What was a lovely political win
that we said time and time again in<br>
> discussion after discussion was
impractical and would provide no
benefit,<br>
> has demonstrably has created
harm,” Noss said.<br>
><br>
> He was received with cautious
support by ICANN board members.<br>
><br>
> Chair Steve Crocker wonder aloud
how many of the 800,000 suspended
domains<br>
> are owned by bad guys, and he
noted that LEA don’t appear to gather
data in<br>
> the way that the registrars are
demanding.<br>
><br>
> “We were subjected, all of us, to
heavy-duty pressure from the law<br>
> enforcement community over a long
period of time. We finally said,
‘Okay,<br>
> we hear you and we’ll help you
get this stuff implemented,’”, he
added.<br>
> “That creates an obligation as
far as I’m concerned on their part.”<br>
><br>
> “We’re in a — at least from a
moral position — in a strong position
to say,<br>
> ‘You must help us understand
this. Otherwise, you’re not doing your
part of<br>
> the job’”, he said.<br>
><br>
> Chehade also seemed to support
the registrars’ position that LEA
needs to<br>
> justify its demands and offered
to take their data and concerns to the
LEA<br>
> and the Governmental Advisory
Committee.<br>
><br>
> “They put restrictions on us that
are causing harm, according to these<br>
> numbers,” he said. “Let’s take
this back at them and say, hey, you
ask for<br>
> all these things, this is what
happened.”<br>
><br>
> “If you can’t tell me what good
this has done, be aware not to come
back<br>
> and ask for more,” he said. “I’m
with you on this 100%. I’m saying
let’s<br>
> use the great findings you seem
to have a found and well-package them
in a<br>
> case and I will be your
advocate.”<br>
><br>
> Director Mike Silber also spoke
in support of the RrSG’s position.<br>
><br>
> “My view is if what you are
saying is correct, the LEA’s have
blown their<br>
> credibility,” he said. “They’re
going to have to do a lot of work
before we<br>
> impose similar disproportional
requirements on actors that are not
proven<br>
> to be bad actors.”<br>
><br>
> So what does this all mean for
registrants?<br>
><br>
> I don’t think there’s any ongoing
process right now to get the Whois<br>
> verification requirements
overturned — that would require a
renegotiation<br>
> of the RAA — but it does seem to
mean demands from governments and
police<br>
> are going to have to be much more
substantiated in future.<br>
><br>
> Noss attempted to link the
problem to the recommendations of the
Whois<br>
> Expert Working Group (EWG), which
propose a completely revamped,<br>
> centralized Whois system with
much more verification<br>
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://domainincite.com/16855-whois-killer-is-a-recipe-for-a-clusterfuck"
target="_blank">http://domainincite.com/16855-whois-killer-is-a-recipe-for-a-clusterfuck</a>><br>
> and not much to benefit
registrants.<br>
><br>
> To paraphrase: if email
verification causes so much harm, what
harms could<br>
> be caused by the EWG proposal?<br>
><br>
> The EWG was not stuffed with LEA
or governments, however, so it
couldn’t<br>
> really be characterized as
another set of unreasonable demands
from the<br>
> same entities.<br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> Joly MacFie 218 565 9365
Skype:punkcast<br>
> WWWhatsup NYC - <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wwwhatsup.com"
target="_blank">http://wwwhatsup.com</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://pinstand.com"
target="_blank">http://pinstand.com</a>
- <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://punkcast.com"
target="_blank">
http://punkcast.com</a><br>
> VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://isoc-ny.org"
target="_blank">http://isoc-ny.org</a><br>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> -<br>
>
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><br>
> At-Large Official Site: <a
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</blockquote>
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<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<font color="#888888">
<blockquote style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;font-family:garamond,serif">
<i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Seun Ojedeji,<br
style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">
</span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Federal
University Oye-Ekiti<br
style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">
</span><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">web:
</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fuoye.edu.ng" target="_blank">http://www.fuoye.edu.ng</a><br>
<span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><span
style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">Mobile: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" value="+2348035233535">+2348035233535</a></span><span
style="color:rgb(0,102,0)"></span><br>
</i><i><span style="color:rgb(0,102,0)">alt email:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://goog_1872880453" target="_blank">
</a><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng"
target="_blank">seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng</a></span></i><br>
<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The key to
understanding is humility - my view !<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</font><br>
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